Is Wicked The Musical Queer? The Untold LGBTQ+ Story Behind Elphaba & Glinda

Welcome back to Let's Be Perfectly Queer Podcast, your go to LGBTQ+ Australian podcast for all things queer.

In this episode, we ask the ultimate question: is Wicked The Musical actually queer? 

With the release of the new Wicked movie starring Cynthia Erivo and Ariana Grande, we unpack the queer subtext, LGBTQ+ themes, and history behind one of the world’s most beloved musicals.

From The Wizard of Oz’s hidden queer roots to Gregory Maguire’s original novel, Wicked: The Life and Times of the Wicked Witch of the West, we explore how this story became a metaphor for otherness, identity, and queer love.

We talk about:
 ✨ The queer subtext between Elphaba and Glinda, were they more than friends?
 🌈 The LGBTQ+ symbolism behind The Wizard of Oz and “Friends of Dorothy”
💬 How author Gregory Maguire’s own identity shaped the story
🎭 Why Wicked still resonates with queer audiences two decades later
💚 How art, theatre, and representation can create belonging for LGBTQIA+ people

So whether you cried during “For Good,” grew up loving Wicked, or just want to understand why queer fans feel so connected to Oz, this one’s for you.

🎧 Listen in and learn about the queer subtext behind Wicked The Musical ... and until next time, stay perfectly queer!

Archie & Katie 🌈

 Do YOU think Wicked is queer?

Chapters

• 0:54 Katie tells us some news
• 10:05 Is Wicked Queer

Transcript

Archie (00:05)
to let's be perfectly queer.

Katie (00:08)
Queer podcast, creating space to talk about all things queer. And I'm-

Archie (00:11)
I'm Archie. Katie.

And we are your hosts.

We are back and what are we talking about on today's episode?

Katie (00:26)
and we're back.

We are talking about WICKED!

Archie (00:34)
Yes, and was wicked actually or is wicked queer? Yes.

Katie (00:39)
Yes,

of course, why would we be talking about anything else?

Archie (00:43)
We're not gonna give the whole little episode away. I'll give you some facts and you can decide whether Wicked is queer or it's not queer. But before we get into that,

Katie (00:54)
some fun, interesting... no, I'm going to rephrase that. It's not fun and interesting, it's a report. So I've seen this report pop up a couple of times on some gay news websites and it's a London Institute for Strategic Dialogue report that came out recently in October. This report gives a bit of context to what kind of anti-LGBTQ plus discrimination has been happening in the last five years.

So it goes on to review instances of online and offline discrimination for LGBTQ plus individuals between like 2020 to 2025. And it looks at this overview from the US, the UK and other areas of Europe. So the purpose for it specifically was to see

what the overview of anti-LGBTQ plus mobilisation has been and how it's been exacerbated by tech platforms out there today, which is really quite interesting. So in this overview, actually, it's really interesting. And I think we'll do another episode on it so we can go into it a bit more in depth because it does show that there has been some positive changes, limited, but some, but most of it has been this overfall of this negative rhetoric that we see.

which you feel all the time, but it's nice having the data backing it as well. So the three main topics it kind of goes into is online and offline erasature, violence and extremism and the impact of LGBTQ plus youth. So it noted that in the online and offline erasature, the AI moderation and safety rules, it says accidentally, but whether it's purposeful or not, who knows, they're erasing LGBTQ plus content.

that these tools are actually targeting queer people and queer content users. And through that moderation, we're seeing less and less of it. That's from online platforms, but this is also like we're saying that offline erasature we're seeing in like book bans, we're seeing in legislation, restrictive changes for trans rights, a lot of multifaceted that come down in regards to actually statutory legislation through these different

through the US, UK and Europe. So the other facets, so like I said, violence and extremism, it was noting that like terror attacks, violent extremist attacks, hate crimes have basically increased or remained as high as they were in 2020, which was extremely high around COVID times. And that most of these threats come from extremist groups, which we know, like we've seen all the reports coming out.

So it's not one point where you get attacked from, it's like these multi points, these other extremist groups across this ideological spectrum as well, which has been kind of crazy to think about. So the impact on LGBT plus youth, it says that about 71 % of US LGBTQ plus youth say that laws affecting rights affected their mental health, which is understandable. It says that nearly 50 % feel anxious, very often due to threats.

in LGBTQ plus spaces and that those spaces are getting erased slowly but surely. So generally in this summary, they're saying that there is a clear link between online and offline anti LGBTQ plus activity that these tech platforms are generally reducing protection guards that they used to have out previously. But then on the flip side, there's also this over moderation, which is a raising queer content. So it seems that the raising real life biases and then

also with the fewer safeguards online increases our risk generally. So it's quite interesting to see that the work that was done all previously is actually getting erased. All the civil rights work that has been coming up from our history, our queer history is getting undone. Although that there has been like small advances that more people are statistically coming out in their workplaces and receiving less discrimination in their workplaces that

hate crimes against queer individuals are increasing in our education, it's increasing in our platforms, and it's increasing across in our legislation as well through all these different areas, so through the US, the UK, as well as Europe. There's a speculation in a lot of the gay news is that that's also reflected here in Australia. And I don't necessarily disagree with that point, but it would be really good to be able to see what the reports come out from Australian data.

to see if we are in fact actually the same as what's across in the UK.

Archie (05:40)
And they say, yes, we are. ⁓ because I do most of our social media and I see most of the stuff on the platforms. Late October, I was on social media and there was posts about how the puberty ban over in Queensland was actually went against health care regulations, that kind of stuff. And all the comments on it were disgusting. The comments were things like, stop grooming our kids, leave our kids alone. And then when people were saying, okay, but what about precocious puberty and that kind of stuff? The people on it.

I think 70 % of the comments were very negative. And so we do have great laws here that do protect us, but that doesn't mean that we are safe from hate crimes, that we are safe from people believing what's happening in the media. And you know, when you have such leaders around the world, not only Trump, but other leaders saying that, you know, we are cracking down on the LGBTQ plus community, then it gives people the right to start hating and talking and giving that kind of stuff.

Even though we've got great laws, we do, we have great laws here to protect us, it does not mean that we are safe from hate crimes.

Katie (06:45)
It's quite interesting because on the backing of that as well, if there's a linkage between what's happening on the platforms and the negative rhetoric behind anti-trans, anti-queer on the platforms, we share these platforms. We don't have different platforms here in Australia. If there's negative impacts there, we're going to see it here in Australia, even if our legislation doesn't follow and isn't as anti-queer, anti-trans as everywhere else along the way.

The negative feedback that people are getting is going to start becoming the mindsets of the people who watch those platforms.

Archie (07:21)
You know, do you have people like JK Rowling and when you see so much anti-trans rhetoric, it then normalises anti-trans rhetoric in your everyday life? ⁓

Katie (07:32)
Yeah,

I did want to just quickly say before we jump into further of the episode though, because I thought it was a really interesting linkage between more people being out in their workplace and less workplace discrimination. Why do you think that is?

Archie (07:47)
It's because the laws protect them in the workplace so they can't be outwardly discriminatory because then they're like, well if I say something, Jack's gonna go dob to HR. Where when you don't have those people who are out in a company, people have a bit of bravado to be sexist and homophobic because nobody's gonna go dob on them.

Katie (08:06)
thought of it from that opinion, but that's actually really fair. I thought it was more to do with, which I think I might be wrong now that you've said that and I'm like, that's very valid. But I think it's a lot easier to discriminate against somebody who you don't know and you've not had in your your wheelhouse. You don't know this person. It's easier to hate people that or minorities that you don't associate with. So if we are creating space in our workplaces,

to be more open and people can associate. ⁓ this is what trans looks like. That person's just another person. It's a lot harder to actively hate someone's face.

Archie (08:48)
I get what you're saying as well because I think it's both a little bit from Colour Me and Colour Me be depending on the industry. Yeah. Where some people are like, well, I'm not going to say it now because there is somewhere in there and then I'm going to get in trouble. Where you're totally right as well that when you put a face to an unknown, it's like, well, it's no longer that unknown. You do know someone who is part of the queer community, who is part of a different religion. And you're like, ⁓ well, they're actually okay. And everything that I've been told is a lie.

Katie (09:15)
Yeah, so true. I'm really looking forward to unpacking this a little bit more because when I've been reading through it and researching it, it's very interesting where the data comes from because there's like FBI data, there's UCLA data, there's like all these American civil rights, liberties, unions data. So it's a really good overview of data from major corporations who pull these statistics. So I'd love to unpack this a little bit later on.

in another episode just to give you guys the breakdowns because it's really interesting.

Archie (09:50)
I'll leave that in your court to do that. Lovely. On that note, I forgot to say happy Halloween. is Halloween. is our favourite time of year and because of that I decided that we were going to do an episode about some famous witches.

Katie (09:56)
Yeah, absolutely.

yeah, absolutely. And who are the best famous witches? I'm not sure, actually. I was going to say Hocus Pocus is probably my favourite still.

Archie (10:14)
I do love Hocus Pocus but in the spirit of Halloween and with Wicked coming out in a few weeks, we thought, well I thought, we were going to tackle the whole fanfic and the deep dive of whether Glinda and Elphaba and the whole Wicked series is actually queer.

Katie (10:33)
think that's a fabulous idea. Sorry. I was going to say it. Are you going to give us a, a well? ⁓ shame. The resident artist in the room. Not even going to do it. a shame. Anyway, should we get into it?

Archie (10:37)
Darn.

On today's episode we are talking about Wicked because Wicked is coming out pretty soon now. what we're particularly looking at is Wicked Queer. That is what this episode is going to be about. ⁓ You know it. So if you grew up in the early 2000s, went through a Wicked phase and cried during For Good and didn't really know exactly why, this episode is for you. Pretty much. Or, you know, if you recently only just got on the bandwagon with

Katie (10:53)
So excited.

the ultimate ships.

all of us.

Archie (11:15)
Cynthia Revo, that's okay as well. So today we're asking, were Elphaba and Glinda more than just friends?

Katie (11:23)
That's the answer.

Archie (11:24)
100 % and so there will be spoilers so if you haven't watched the musical or read the books or seen clips from TikTok you have been warned. So before we get into it though do you think their relationship was more romantic or deeply platonic or maybe a bit of both? What's your opinion? I think

Katie (11:42)
It's quite funny because I feel a little bit different in a theatre to what I feel is portrayed in the movies. And I think that's just because of the way that the actors are and the takes that people have on it are very different. In some facets, I've seen Wicked a couple of times in the theatre, not going to lie. I love it. I think it's gorgeous. Some of the times I've felt that it's more of a connection, the intensity of the chemistry that they have and that they bring to it can definitely be perceived as that borderline

We're not sisters, but we're incredibly close. And we also might kiss each other sometimes. And then you see the Cynthia Erivo and Ariana Grande and you're like, please, can you just kiss already?

Archie (12:24)
⁓

So you're saying it depends on who plays the characters?

Katie (12:27)
I think it definitely does. What about yourself? How do you feel? Ock.

Archie (12:31)
Well, I've got a different take because I've done a lot of research.

Katie (12:33)
Do you have a different take now to what you had like before research, after research?

Archie (12:38)
But before research, I just thought they were friends. When I originally saw Wicked here in Perth for the first time, it was with Gemma Ricks and I can't remember who played along the side of her. She was incredible, like absolutely goosebumps, like you're shivering your whole body when she was singing Defying Gravity. But there wasn't that connection of any tension between the two. But then when you see the Cynthia Rivo and Ariana Grande and all the

the backstory with all of their press as well. They're like, Ooh, you know, I could see it happening. So I think it definitely depends. When I originally saw Wicked, no, I was like, you know, they're just friends. Yeah. But after Cynthia Revo and Arianna Grande, I started questioning it. And then I saw some stuff where people have a whole fandom about them being queer. And I'm going to go down and give you some tidbits and stuff that I've found to...

See if I've changed your mind or if you still think that they're not queer.

Katie (13:36)
I think, do you know what, just quickly to put into it, I think if the characters had have been heterosexual and you had a, if you had Glinda or Alphaba, one of them as a male and one of them as a female, they 100 % would have been together. Like I think that's just how it is. Just because of the chemistry, if you listen to the songs, all that kind of stuff.

Archie (13:56)
So let's start at the beginning, just like any good musical does. So, L. Frank Baum, B-A-U-M, was the original author of the Oz books. And several creatives over the years have tried to adapt or remix or completely rip off his stories. And though many believe that Wicked is a Baum adaption, it technically isn't. ⁓ So, Wicked the musical we have all come to know and love is actually based on Gregory Maguire's novel.

and his novel is a very strange, very serious adult book that uses Oz as kind of like a landscape, like a starting point to explore something much darker, the origins of human evil.

Katie (14:34)
Wow, I mean yeah, you kind of get that, especially just even in the opening scene.

Archie (14:39)
Right? Yeah. So I always thought Wicked was based on the original Oz books by Frank Baum. I had no idea that Gregory Maguire and his book or books, his book is the one that's inspired Wicked. Did you know that?

Katie (14:52)
Yeah.

I didn't know that, but I'm kind of not surprised. It's the same thing that they do in Star Wars is you have the original Star Wars and then you have people who create these and I forget what they're called now because apparently my geek is wearing off, but you have these people who create these things outside and sometimes those tangents actually then become law because they are so good and make so much sense. No, it's a, it's, it's called something different. Okay. Like, and I'm not.

Archie (15:16)
Are you talking about spin-offs?

Katie (15:22)
I think it's called something different in writing, not in like...

Archie (15:25)
Okay. So Gregory Maguire's novel digs into big questions on morality, power, trauma, and identity. ⁓ and quick fun fact. So alpha bar, the name is actually created from the original author's name. So the original author's name is L Frank Barm. So L for the letter L, fa as in Frank, for Frank, and ba bar as in Barm. So it's actually alpha bar is based on the original author's name.

⁓ How cool is that?

Katie (15:56)
So don't write a memoir, write a musical.

Archie (16:00)
And you might get your name inspired and chucked in there forever. even though Wicked feels like classic Oz with a Broadway twist and glitter and fancy and all that kind of thing, it was Maguire who reimagined Balm's world, turned it on its head and asked, what if the Wicked Witch wasn't wicked at all? What if she was simply just misunderstood? And from that bold question, Wicked was born. ⁓ well, I have to be.

Katie (16:25)
love your drama.

It's wicked! I wonder if he was queer? ⁓

Archie (16:30)
I'm

gonna go into that.

Katie (16:33)
I was going to just ask you. like, ooh.

Archie (16:36)
So Gregory Maguire's novel is called Wicked, the life and times of the wicked witch of the West and it came out in 1995. ⁓ And it was never meant for kids. It was dark, political and as many have come to realise, kind of queer. So Maguire was actually known as a children's author. That's what he was famous for. And at the time he began writing Wicked, he was wrestling with some very grown up ideas and questions. And he found himself asking, what actually makes someone evil? Is it something you're born with?

or something the world builds into you. Or maybe it's Maybelline. Anyway, inspired by this age-old conundrum and his love for the original Oz books, he saw a perfect way to explore these complex ideas. Elphaba is this fiercely independent, green-skinned outsider. She doesn't conform, doesn't play by the rules, and she doesn't fit into the romantic expectations that surround her. And then there's Glinda. Blonde, bubbly,

classically beautiful the exact opposite of Alphaba in every single way. And yet, just like any good love story, they're drawn to each other. They start off rocky, but eventually they live together, grow close, and depend on each other emotionally. There are moments in the book that feel intimate and borderline romantic, even if it's never made explicit. And isn't that like every good love story? You've got the

They don't get along and then something happens and they really see each other for who they are, et cetera, et cetera. Absolutely. Yeah. It's the kind of closeness that a lot of queer people recognise from early friendships that felt like a little bit more or that could have been if we'd had the language. Yep. And if you read it as a queer love story, you wouldn't be the only one. In an interview with them, Maguire admitted he intentionally wrote certain lines.

Katie (18:05)
the

Archie (18:25)
To suggest a romantic connection between Elphaba and Glinda, he wanted to add a layer of emotional complexity to their story. There's even a scene where Elphaba kisses Glinda. What you wanted. Maguire explained that moment was very much on purpose. He said he wrote it in a modest and refined way so that you, as the reader, might imagine that maybe one of them felt something a little more, but didn't know how or didn't dare to say it out loud. Or, you know,

Katie (18:36)
You it. That's it. Thank you Gregory.

Archie (18:54)
when the lights turn off and we don't actually see what's going on in the bedroom. So he didn't want to spell it out, but he wanted the possibility to live there between the lines. To link. Exactly. And wanted to bring a sense of diversity and sexual orientation into the world of Oz. Not as a gimmick, but to make characters feel more real, believable and more layered, just like humans. Yeah. Fans have often picked up on it too, pointing out how Glinda and Elphaba's bond seemed to go far beyond friendship, which is what you mentioned. Yeah.

there's another layer in Wicked that often gets overlooked, one that touches on gender identity. Gregory Maguire has actually spoken about the idea that Elphaba might be intersex or even trans. ⁓ In the original novel, there are references to her genitalia that spark these questions.

Katie (19:43)
I feel like I need to read the novel now.

Archie (19:46)
I think you do. He explained that he wanted Wicked to explore how we see people not just through the lens of trauma but beyond it. That we are all more than the things that have happened to us. Right at the beginning of the book, there's a moment when Elphaba is born and someone wonders, does she have both sex organs? Maybe it was just a trick of the light. Maguire added to this and said, you could wonder for the rest of your life whether she did or not, but whether she did or didn't wouldn't change the path she had to go on. Rise. And that's the key. So he doesn't give us a clear answer. Sorry.

Katie (20:15)
As a healthcare professional, I'm like, hmm, a penis. Trick or the lot.

Archie (20:21)
⁓ So he wrote it in a way that doesn't give us a clear answer, we kind of have to come up with the puzzle pieces and put it together based on our understanding, our knowledge and how we want to read the characters and what's going on.

Katie (20:32)
It's almost like he's taken anything. You could look at somebody and be like, you know how when you, okay, I'm trying to form this thought while I'm speaking at the same time, but it's like anything that you could use to make derogatory comments on or anything that you could use to be like, you're not like me, she's both of. She's both man and woman. She is a different colour. She is queer. She is anything.

Anything that you could pinpoint that you potentially might have issues with or you might see as something dissimilar to you, is one of everything. It's quite interesting how those things have sloughed off as they've gotten onto the theatre or they've gotten onto the stage.

Archie (21:17)
you know, again, it's, people's interpretation and Broadway, you're probably not going to have two women kiss on stage on Broadway in 19 or whenever the musical came around. I've, I've it down. that's going to impact as well, you know, cause people want to make money still. Yeah. So, you know, and so you wrote these things in not to tease or sensationalize or queer bait, but to challenge us to think about identity and how we define people.

Katie (21:32)
Yeah, it's a franchise.

Archie (21:44)
Readers have also drawn parallels between the illness of the tiger character in the book and the AIDS crisis. So we don't see a tiger in the actual musical, but in the book there's a tiger character. And when asked directly about whether that was intentional, Gregory Maguire simply replied with, everything was on my mind and the answer is yes. wow. He further explained that when Fiyero is killed, or at least believed to be, and Elphaba retreats into a monastery of nuns, she ends up spending seven years caring for the dying.

That entire storyline, he said, was a nod to the AIDS epidemic and the queer community's grief, resilience and caretaking. And I wonder, because, you know, lesbians were very known for taking care of gay men during the AIDS crisis. Was that a bit of a nod about Alphabas sexuality?

Katie (22:31)
Do you know what? literally just got shivers from hearing that. It's so beautiful. A hundred percent Gregory is queer because there's no way that there's no way as a cis heterosexual man that you would have this kind of consideration and knowledge and understanding of the nuance that's happened in the AIDS crisis, as well as the people who supported them and the authentic feelings that comes from this. It's beautiful.

Archie (22:54)
And that's because he knew firsthand what it meant to watch people die and what it meant to stay and care for them. Even in a fantasy world where troubles melt like lemon drops, as he puts it, someone still has to do the work. Someone still has to wash the bodies, say the prayers and hold the space. So yes, he was a queer man. And it makes Wicked not just a story about witches, but about the people who show up when the rest of the world looks away. Then there is the 1939 film that everybody kind of always attaches to Wicked and the story of The Wizard of Oz.

So Dorothy literally stands at a crossroads and the scarecrow says, of course, some people go both ways, which could be a nod to bisexuality, sexuality, and so on. It's the ultimate misfit story. A ragtag crew of outsiders on a journey to find themselves only to learn they were already whole all along. Isn't that every queer child's story?

Katie (23:46)
It's so true. It also sounds very Australian. ⁓

Archie (23:50)
Dorothy escapes her dull black and white world for a dazzling Technicolor one, finds chosen family and scores a fabulous pair of shoes in the process. Some believe that it's not only a hero's journey but a coming out arc as well. And then there is the song Somewhere Over the Rainbow. We were young, we were innocent, we didn't see all the glaring signs that it's queer.

Katie (24:07)
We're not the

be red glittering slippers.

Archie (24:17)
Exactly.

So watching Wizard of Oz for the first time, did you see it as a queer lens at all?

Katie (24:23)
Absolutely not! Definitely not!

Archie (24:25)
I was like, ooh it's got some cool songs and there's a yellow brick road. That was my take from ⁓ watching the Wizard of Oz.

Katie (24:31)
to be honest, the only thing I remember to fully for when I was younger is that the witch got squashed. I was like, damn.

Archie (24:39)
I always thought about how fake those legs looked.

Katie (24:41)
yeah, 100 % stockings with shoes shoved on them.

Archie (24:44)
Exactly.

And by the 1950s and 60s, The Wizard of Oz had already been fully embraced by queer audiences, especially gay men. The phrase friend of Dorothy popping up. there are a few versions of how that term came to be, but many people trace it back to that film. And we've touched on this before in a previous episode, but it's kind of poetic that a film about finding your way home became a symbol for people trying to find who they truly are and where they truly belong. So what's your thoughts so far? Anything you'd like to add? No.

No?

Katie (25:14)
It's like, I'm quite good at adding things along the way or interrupting as one would say. No, I think it's beautiful. I really it's I feel like I love it. I love Wicked more now knowing the origin story and I can understand why I can understand why the movie because it would have drawn more from the book. But like even with the theatre productions, it feels very authentic. The feeling and the pain that's felt in Alphaba is

is written from somebody who's felt pain and it makes very much sense when you go and you understand why Gregory wrote the way he did and now it comes out and you see how it translates. Beautiful.

Archie (25:56)
And

that's a great segue because we're about to start talking about the musical and with musicals a lot of queer people are drawn to the arts and so you know it's definitely possible that a lot of queer people worked on Wicked the musical and you already have a queer based text to work from so for us watching as queer kids you could definitely see where you might make some connections. So it's 2003 and Wicked the musical hits Broadway. I was in year 11. No I wasn't, I was younger. I was year 9.

Katie (26:25)
You would weigh 14.

Archie (26:26)
Yeah, I was year 9. I didn't really know too much about musicals, except the ones... you not? Well, except the ones that were shown at school, you know, that kind of stuff. ⁓ Because I lived in the country, how's that? I didn't have access. the ones that were shown at school. And at the centre of it? Elphaba and Glinda. Roommates, rivals, lovers, soulmates. Their dynamic is electric. They argue, cry, change each other, and then there's for good. The duet they sing before parting forever.

Katie (26:35)
Her lips sounds like you.

Archie (26:55)
and tell me that's not a romantic love song to the person that has your entire heart. Some actresses on stage, and this is probably why you've seen it before, have even played it as a love story. Watch enough versions online and you'll see everything from soft hand holding and even near kisses. But even without that, the way they look at each other, the way they say goodbye, it's emotional intimacy at a level that LGBTQ plus folk instantly recognise and understand.

Katie (27:00)
So beautiful.

Archie (27:25)
For those of you who don't know Wicked but want to know what we're talking about, I'm just going to give you some little bits. So Glinda and Elphaba meet at Shiz. Shiz is like a university or a school for people with special abilities. It's here where they're forced to room together and are far from friends at first. Elphaba is ridiculed for her green skin and outsider energy while Glinda is adored by their peers. When Elphaba is invited to meet the wizard, she doesn't bring Fiyero, she brings Glinda.

And when she discovers the wizard is just an ordinary man behind a curtain, it's not Fiero she goes for, it's Glinda she wants by her side as she defies gravity and sets off towards the skies. Well, the western skies, not any skies, the western skies. Even after Fiero enters the picture, the real narrative tension, the emotion, the dramatic tension, it's all about Glinda and Elphaba. That moment at the school dance, it's not about him, it never was, it's about Glinda finally seeing Elphaba for who she truly is, accepting her

choosing her and that moment cements their friendship. Act 2 shifts gears and focuses more on exposing the wizards lies. But the queer arc between Elphaba and Glinda doesn't go away. Their bond is unmistakable in For Good. It's a gut wrenching goodbye. Where the entire emotional climax of the show rests on how much these two women adore each other and change each other's lives for the better. Yes of course, you know can have strong friendships that you feel that way and they can leave an impact on you and make you feel that

It's sorry emotionally heartbreaking to say goodbye, but calling someone a handprint on your heart? It's not really something that you'd say for a friend.

Katie (28:59)
Yeah, I mean it's not something you would say to anybody apart from somebody who you thought was your true soulmate.

Archie (29:06)
Exactly. And you know, they're chemistry, they're complicated, fierce, aching love for one another. Many think it goes beyond friendship. And I think I don't even need to convince you. You feel that, you understand, you get it. I'm there. Now we have the film adaption. Part one came out last year and we have part two coming out real soon. And now we get a whole new take on these characters. With Cynthia Rivo as Elphaba and Ariana Grande as Glinda, the casting alone adds layers. Yeah. Because Cynthia is an out queer

proud black woman which makes her othering as Elphaba even more powerful, even more upsetting and honestly even more relatable. Grande has even said herself that Glinda's a little bit in the closet and the original Broadway Glinda, Kristin Chenoweth, also agrees. John Chu's film adaption has really struck a chord and at its heart, Wicked is all about the otherness, resistance and the courage to embrace who you really are.

Katie (29:51)
Yeah, of course.

Archie (30:03)
even when the world tells you not to. Those themes, they speak volumes to a queer kid's heart. They do. Some far-right commentators have tried to bring the film down, claiming it's too woke and predicted it would flop. Well, they were dead wrong. No way! Yeah. So Wicked has become the highest grossing film ever based on a Broadway musical. And as of early August, the film has raked in $756 million worldwide. It's earned 10 Oscar nominations.

and currently holds the number five spot at the 2024 box office. So flop my ass. For years, queer audiences have seen themselves in Wicked, whether it's through Elphaba's sense of being an outsider or the deep bond between her and Glinda. The story has sparked endless fan fiction, fan art and heartfelt connection in queer spaces. And if you needed even more confirmation that Wicked's central relationship between Glinda and Elphaba means something, just ask the stars themselves.

In an interview with Gay Times, Cynthia Revo and Ariana Grande were asked about fans who ship their characters as a romantic duo. So Cynthia, who plays Elphaba said, She went on to say,

Ariana added to this saying, And somewhere out there right now I know there is a queer little kid sitting in a theatre watching Wicked and questioning the real meaning behind the song, What is this feeling? This song could definitely be seen from the point of view of a young queer kid not understanding their feelings for someone of the same sex.

and mistaking the actual feeling for something that it's not. It's not loathing. You're actually in love with them. Anyway.

Katie (32:08)
It's always the enemies to the lovers.

Archie (32:10)
It's the arc. It's that romantic arc. Let's wrap it up. They're queer. Maguire wrote them as queer. Done. And when you are queer, right, and you learn to read between the lines and because you don't always have the biggest representation. So even though Glinda and Elphaba were not explicitly queer, their relationship fits into a queer tradition of intense emotional friendship that toes the line of romance that many queer fans can relate to and have experienced.

If you wanted to reach out and send us a message about your opinions on Wicked or anything else, can send us a message, email or DM. Let us know. Do you think Elphaba and Glinda are queer? Do you think they're written as queer? Do you believe there is something more than just friendship?

Katie (32:54)
have you shipped them all along?

Archie (32:56)
Exactly. So I hope you like this episode and don't forget if you did enjoy it, it'd mean the world to us if you wouldn't mind giving us a quick rate review or subscribe on whatever platform you're listening to.

Katie (33:08)
I look forward to Wicked that's coming out really soon. I can't wait to watch it. It's going to be amazing, I'm sure.

Archie (33:15)
Thank you so much for listening to this episode, I hope you enjoyed it and until next time, I hope that we have been... And wicked.

Katie (33:21)
queer.

Archie (33:32)
You

Katie (33:36)
The sad rise above it. It's beautiful. Thanks, I thought it was really nice too.