Professor Paula Gerber: Turning the Tide of Transphobia

Welcome back to Let's Be Perfectly Queer Podcast, your go to LGBT Australian podcast for all things queer.

In this episode of Let’s Be Perfectly Queer, we sit down with Professor Paula Gerber, one of Australia’s leading human rights scholars and a fierce advocate for LGBTQIA+ equality. Paula shares her incredible journey from working in a male-dominated construction law firm to becoming a key voice in protecting queer and trans rights through law and education.

We dive into her book Sex, Gender and Identity: Trans Rights in Australia and unpack what it means to “turn the tide on a climate of hatred.” From tackling misinformation in the media to highlighting real stories of love, resilience, and progress, Paula explores how Australia compares to the UK, The US and are neighbouring countries in protecting trans and gender-diverse people.

We also discuss:

• Why Australia’s legal protections for trans people matter
• How the media fuels fear instead of understanding
• Positive trans stories the news ignores
• What allies can do to truly support trans and gender-diverse communities
• The importance of the Asia-Pacific fight for LGBTQIA+ rights
• Why inclusion still makes a difference

Paula also shares her personal turning point, a life-changing accident that pushed her to leave corporate law behind and dedicate her life to equality and human rights.

This is a powerful, insightful, and hopeful conversation about how we can all stand up for fairness, inclusion, and love no matter who we are or where we live.

🎧 Listen in and learn how everyday Australians can help shape a more inclusive future for all... and until next time, stay perfectly queer!

Archie & Katie 🌈


Paula Gerber Links:

• The Book
• Instagram
• Website

Transcript

Archie: Welcome to Let's Be Perfectly Queer, a queer podcast creating space to talk about all things queer. Today we are joined by Professor Paula Gerber, one of Australia's leading human rights scholars, and a passionate advocate for LGBTQIA plus rights. Welcome to the show. Paula, how are you doing? 

Professor Paula Gerber: I'm doing great.

Professor Paula Gerber: Thanks for having me. 

Archie: Thank you for getting in touch and wanting to jump on board and everything that you're doing is really exciting. Before we get into it though, did you wanna tell our audience a little bit about yourself? 

Professor Paula Gerber: Uh, sure. So I'm a human rights law professor. At Monash University before becoming an academic, I worked as a construction lawyer for many years, which was a very male dominated, uh, one could say toxic masculine workplace.

Professor Paula Gerber: And being a lesbian in that environment was not the greatest. And I decided, uh, sort of had an early midlife crisis that I would get out of private practice and find something that. Interested in me more and felt more satisfying and rewarding. So, um, I stumbled upon a human rights law and did a master's and then a PhD in it.

Professor Paula Gerber: And now I get to research and write and teach about human rights law and specifically, uh, the rights of LGBTQA plus people. 

Archie: That's amazing. That's a big jump from those two different sides. 

Professor Paula Gerber: It was a huge shift and one I've never, for one second. Regretted making. 

Archie: That's amazing. That's definitely amazing.

Archie: So you have a book, and it's called Sex, gender and Identity, uh, trans Rights in Australia. And it's really a call to action if I'm correct. When you say turning the tide on a climate of hatred. What does that look like in everyday life? 

Professor Paula Gerber: Well, I think at the moment the trans community in Australia is very scared, and I think with good reason in that what we're seeing happening in other countries, particularly the US and the UK, is frightening because there really is a concerted attack on the trans and non-binary community, and particularly trans women.

Professor Paula Gerber: And the transplant in Australia is concerned that that sort of toxic transphobia is gonna make its way to Australia. And so this book is really about what's going on here at the moment. What are the protections that members of the trans community have here? And are they enough to safeguard them against the winding back of their human rights that we're seeing happening in other countries?

Archie: Because we'd be silly to say that it's not gonna happen here watching the rest of the world, and we kind of have to be on guard. Is that, am I correct to make sure that those kind of things don't happen here? 

Professor Paula Gerber: We have to be on the front foot? That's, that's for sure. But our attitudes here, our societal attitudes and our laws are very different.

Professor Paula Gerber: So if we look at what happened in the UK with the four Women Scotland decision of the Supreme Court earlier this year, where they said, under their Equality Act women means only women who were born and designated female on their birth certificate. Now that was under the Equality Act, which is very outdated legislation that no longer is fit for purpose.

Professor Paula Gerber: Compare that to the Sex Discrimination Act that we've got in Australia and no court could reach the same decision. So that's what I mean that I don't think it is, we shouldn't take it for granted that it's gonna happen here because I think our laws are much better than in the uk. 

Archie: So we're, we're pretty lucky being in Australia.

Professor Paula Gerber: We certainly are. We certainly are. I mean, in terms of, um, I mean, I'm an ally rather than a member of the trans community. I'm certainly a member of the L-G-B-T-I-Q community, but there's no place really that I'd rather be and feel safe than in. In Australia 

Archie: doing this podcast, I definitely see seeing what's happening around the world and listening to other people's stories.

Archie: I do feel very lucky to be born in Australia and be living here and having such great protections. 

Professor Paula Gerber: Yes, but it, you know, it shouldn't come down to, to luck about where you're born. I mean, human rights are universal. Every person in every country should be able to enjoy them. So that's why I've spent, you know, the last 20 years advocating for.

Professor Paula Gerber: Greater protections of the rights of L-G-B-T-I-Q people around the world because it is just dumb luck that we were born in Australia. 

Archie: Yeah, it, it's very true. It should be a basic human rights and you see it everywhere and it's it's basic human right, of just being able to live and go to the bathroom is being taken away, which is absolutely ridiculous.

Professor Paula Gerber: Yes, exactly. Exactly. 

Archie: And talking about that, so the media loves a headline, right? They love a clickbait, they love people to just jump on board, and they definitely love a headline about trans people, especially in sports, bathrooms, prisons, schools. What other stories and voices we don't hear that you wanted to highlight in your book or wanted to highlight in our conversation?

Professor Paula Gerber: Yeah, absolutely. So you're dead, right? The media just want the sensationalist, salacious headline and story, and they ignore all the positive stories about trans people. So the book starts with the wedding that I went to of two trans women. And it was an absolutely joyous celebration of love and of them committing to spending their life together.

Professor Paula Gerber: And we need more positive stories out there rather than the fearmongering and the really vilifying of trans people. And the problem is that most people these days, most Australians know someone who's lesbian or gay or, or bi. And that sort of proximity knowing someone. That is sexual orientation that's different to yours makes it harder to hate the gays or the lesbians or the bis, but the trans community is only 0.9% of the populations and not even 1% of the population, which means that most people don't know someone who's trans and therefore it's easier to believe.

Professor Paula Gerber: All the, the hate and the scary stuff that you're reading about that, you know, trans women are wanting to get into bathrooms, to, to rape cisgender women, which, you know, completely ignores the fact that vast majority of rapists are white, heterosexual, cisgender men. They're not trans women, and because people don't know someone who's trans, the media actually has a real responsibility to educate and raise awareness about who trans people are.

Professor Paula Gerber: Rather than just perpetuating these, as you say, clickbait headlines that scare people. 

Archie: Yeah. And you mentioned like trans people make up such a small percentage of the population, but somehow they make up a lot of news article headlines and have become a massive target. Why do you think that is? 

Professor Paula Gerber: I think the, we are all socialized and raised with very strict gender binaries.

Professor Paula Gerber: You know, you're either a boy and you like trucks and action figures, or you're a girl and you play with dolls and tee sets. When people cross that gender binary, other people seem to find it destabilizing, and I think it's certainly a bit of a generational thing. Younger people do not seem to have the same issues that older people have, and by older, I mean sort of people over 30, it seems.

Professor Paula Gerber: So I think we really need to raise awareness and educate people so that they realize that trans people are different, but they're not scary and they're just being their authentic selves. We need to be allies that are out there. When trans people are such a small percentage of the population, they can't fight this wave of transphobia on their own.

Professor Paula Gerber: They need allies who are out there standing by them, supporting them and calling out transphobic behavior and hate so that we don't have people, you know, mindlessly following someone like Trump and believing all the, the lies he puts out there about trans people. 

Archie: Yeah. It's almost like hate and lies kind of brings communities together who are ha filled with hate.

Archie: That's what bonds them. For some reason. 

Professor Paula Gerber: Yes. Although I think this is where Australia and the US are quite different. I think in times of trouble, Australians seem to pull together a bit more in times of trouble. In the US they tend to become polarized and quite divided. So I think you know that well. I think I know because I've seen the research, the polls that have been done that show that.

Professor Paula Gerber: Australians, overwhelmingly more than 90% in a recent survey this year said trans people should just be able to live their lives authentically and they've got a right to be happy and be who they are. I suspect if the same poll was done in the US it would be a very different result. And we've also seen politicians here like Mark Latham and Katherine Des, a political candidate, really dry and.

Professor Paula Gerber: Use trans people as political fodder and the Australian public said Absolutely not. And a different survey said more than 80, I think it was 86 or 87% said, we do not wanna see trans people used as political footballers. That's not okay. So there's not an appetite for them to be used as a, an issue to rally people around like Ply Palmer tried, didn't that?

Professor Paula Gerber: The last election and, and one of the reasons that I think Australia is not gonna go down the same path as the US is our election result this year. You know, Peter Dutton tried his best to copy the Trump playbook and to divide Australians. And Australians said, no thank you. And you know, Albanese got the greatest victory that Labor's ever had.

Professor Paula Gerber: And you know, his acceptance speech, he's like. We are gonna be kind to each other, and I think that that is more the Australian way than what we're seeing in in the US and the uk. 

Archie: Yeah, I was definitely gonna bring up Dutton and the fact that him doing that absolutely killed his campaign and he lost his seat because Australians were like, no, we actually support one another.

Archie: And I think that's really great. 'cause sometimes seeing all the negative news, you know, from the UK and the us I do get scared sometimes to be a little bit more myself and and to have a podcast. But then when you actually know Australia. Uh, definitely not like the, the US and the uk and as well as, I think there was also a survey this year that said, I think it was like 76 or 86% of Australians still believed in same-sex marriage and that it should be around.

Archie: So I think here in Australia a bit more like, Hey, we help everyone out. It really doesn't matter who you are. 

Professor Paula Gerber: Yes, yes. And, and there's more important things to focus on, you know, the cost of living, shortage of housing. You know, wars that are going on around the world, we don't need to, you know, beat up these silly issues and try and turn 'em into a moral panic when really it's vast majority of people are just not interested in getting involved in whipping up hatred against a minority.

Archie: And it's great that you know that we do have this here. And through your book, you're able to send a message out to more communities and to allies and to help them. Realize that we're just wanting to live and just let us live. 

Professor Paula Gerber: Yes. Yes. And I think you know, the audience for the book is predominantly allies, and that's not just cisgender heterosexual people.

Professor Paula Gerber: I've been really saddened to see that some members of the L-G-B-T-I-Q community who've won hard fought rights to have the sexual orientation recognized and respected and protected in law are actually turning on trans people. And I think, you know, we've got bigger battles to fight and we're stronger together and we need to be united as one.

Professor Paula Gerber: Rainbow community rather than seeing, you know, some parts going, oh, you know it now using LGB without the TI just simply, we need to stamp that out really quickly. 

Archie: I think that's what hurts the most when you see the other members of the lgbtq plus community have turned against trans people. And you do a lot of work across the Asia Pacific through Kaleidoscope.

Archie: Did you wanna tell us a little bit about Kaleidoscope before I go on and ask you a question about that? 

Professor Paula Gerber: Sure. Uh, so Kaleidoscope Human Rights Foundation is an organization that is about amplifying the voices of L-G-B-T-I-Q optimists in the Asia Pacific region. Because one of the things that I've noticed in Australia within the L-G-B-T-I-Q community is that we tend to look inwards a lot, and that was particularly apparent during the marriage equality debate.

Professor Paula Gerber: And yet, right on our doorstep, there are seven Pacific countries where it's still a crime to be gay. So you can be arrested and imprisoned for engaging in consensual same sex sexual conduct in Papua New Guinea in the So Islands in Samoa, in Tonga. And I think, you know, we really need to be looking into our region.

Professor Paula Gerber: Similar in, uh, Asia as well, Malaysia and parts of Indonesia. And so it's really important, I think that we've got the resources and the skills and the voice that we can amplify the advocacy of L-G-B-T-I-Q people in the Asia Pacific region and help them achieve the same. Degree of respect for human rights that we have in Australia.

Archie: I think you kind of answered my second question there, but I was gonna say, compared to our neighbors, how is Australia doing on protecting trans and gender diverse people? 

Professor Paula Gerber: So we we're actually not better in necessarily in the trans space. So, uh, a lot of the measures that are used relate to the criminalization of homosexuality.

Professor Paula Gerber: In fact, in many of these countries, trans people are well respected and valued and important members of the community. So the FFAs in Samoa, the fas in Tonga, they are sort of, you know, have dinner with the royal family in trauma and they're very well respected. They don't use the western language of trans.

Professor Paula Gerber: And if you do use that language, you can. Upset people because they're a very Christian country, but they're also very family oriented. And there's been some attempts by churches, sort of Pentecostal churches that are trying to spread their word around the world. They've tried to get members of the churches to turn their back on trans people, and, and the family members are just like, no, we're not gonna do that.

Professor Paula Gerber: So the law may not be better. In these countries, but societal attitudes seem to be more accepting. 

Archie: I've seen those stories about the FINA and that kind of stuff, and it's really beautiful how they're kind of protected. 

Professor Paula Gerber: Yes. And here it is the trans women that seem to be more of a target rather than the trans men.

Professor Paula Gerber: Whereas in the Pacific Nations, it's a bit the reverse. What we would for trans women tend to be more accepted and respectful and would be it even. And it's the trans men. Can be, have more difficulties being accepted for their gender identity. 

Archie: That's interesting. You don't really see that anywhere else.

Professor Paula Gerber: No, no. That's right. And it's, it's an interesting example of, you know, law's not necessarily the answer. I mean, I'm, I'm not human rights law professor. I, I obviously think laws are important, but you don't necessarily need to have the laws in place for people's rights to be respected. Because we've got all the laws here and people can change their birth certificates and can bring actions in the courts if they're being discriminated against.

Professor Paula Gerber: They don't have those protective laws in Samoa and Solomon Islands and, and the like, but the trans community aren't necessarily saying, we need that law reform. 

Archie: Yeah. You've also said that a motorbike accident kind of sent you down this human rights path. I was so interested to read that. Can you tell us a bit about how that moment shifted everything for you?

Professor Paula Gerber: Yes. I, um, I'd become a partner in a law firm, which is something I'd aspired to do since the time I was in law school. And I was working on a weekend, and when I went into the office on a Sunday morning, it was, you know, sunny and lovely. And by the time I went to go home, it was rainy. And dark. And my motorbike wheel slipped on a tram track in Melbourne and I came off my bike and ended up in hospital and I thought I could have died for the sake of helping, you know, this massive construction company claim millions of dollars from another massive company.

Professor Paula Gerber: And I thought, what am I doing? This is not how I wanna be spending my life. I wanna be doing something meaningful. And I looked at, you know, will I teach English as a second language overseas? Will I. Do a completely different career. And then one of my friends said to me, you still love the law. You just don't like being a construction lawyer, so why don't you find another area of law that you do feel is important?

Professor Paula Gerber: And so I, I decided that was a good idea and I enrolled in a master's degree. And the very first subject I did was human rights. And I thought, okay, this is important. This, this is where I can make a difference. That was more than 20 years ago, and I have really seen how having a voice and being an advocate for human rights can see things change.

Professor Paula Gerber: I was part of the campaign that sought to expunge convictions for men who had been charged or convicted of offenses back in the days when it was a crime to be gay. I've obviously seen marriage equality. I've seen banning of conversion practices. The removal of religious exemptions in equal opportunity in human rights laws in some states.

Professor Paula Gerber: So we're making progress. It's not as fast as I would like. But it's been, you know, it's been a very rewarding career change because I have seen the advances that we're making in human rights protection as well. LGBTQA 

Archie: plus people. Yeah. Sounds like you've definitely done a lot. And I saw, I think it was recently that with Tasmania and the queer, well the gay men being convicted there of getting some revenue, hate, I can't say that word.

Archie: Yeah. Are they getting some And they're 

Professor Paula Gerber: getting some compensation. Yeah. Reparations. That's it. Yes. Tasmania was the last state in Australia to decriminalize homosexuality. They did that in 1997, kicking and screaming after Nick Turnin and Rodney Coon took a complaint to the un and yet now they are one of the most advanced in terms of human rights protections for QA plus people.

Professor Paula Gerber: And the the government has is passing legislation that is going to. Pay a fixed sum to men who were convicted or charged under these, under these laws. So if you were charged but not convicted, 15,000. If you are convicted but not, no penalty imposed, a sentence imposed, then it will be I think 45,000. And if, uh, you actually were penalized through, for example, a jail sentence, then $75,000.

Professor Paula Gerber: So there's not a, you know, a large group of men in Tasmania who are still alive, who will be able to access that compensation. But it's, it's a really important precedent for the rest of Australia, and I would expect to see lobbying happening soon in Victoria, in New South Wales, et cetera, in the a CT for a similar recognition that these laws were wrong.

Professor Paula Gerber: Now, Dan Andrews, the premier of Victoria, has made a very. Powerful moving apology. This is years ago now, to gay people to say these laws were wrong then and they're wrong now, and we should have never enacted them. But to really put some substance behind that apology and, and to pave some reparations for that role, I think would be a great step forward.

Archie: Yeah, a hundred percent. And, and hopefully that does happen and it is a step forward and it does show that we can learn from our history and mistakes. And I think it's, you know, even though there aren't a lot of the gay men around anymore, that it is definitely a signal for other states to do the right thing.

Professor Paula Gerber: Yes. And I think also. It gives me some comfort to see that we can recognize that there have been wrongs in the past and, you know, take steps to, to try and remedy those. And I think about that when I see what's going on against trans people in the US and, and the uk. And I think, you know, how long will it take before.

Professor Paula Gerber: A future president is apologizing for all the roles that Trump perpetrated against the trans community. I hope we don't have to wait too long for that. 

Archie: Hopefully the time will tell, but with everything going on, what actually gives you hope? Right now, 

Professor Paula Gerber: what gives me hope is that I'm seeing the courts.

Professor Paula Gerber: Really making very firm decisions against discrimination against trans people. So there's a couple of cases that have wound their way through the courts recently. One is that. Lesbian Action Group against the Australian Human Rights Commission, where the tribunal that heard that case said to the Lesbian Action Group, you know, you wanna hold events for lesbians, that's all well and good, but you can't say it's only for some lesbians IE only for cisgender lesbians.

Professor Paula Gerber: And they came down very firmly and said, we have the Sex Discrimination Act and that is to protect women, and that's all women. So the analogy I like to use is. You can have these measures that ex discriminate against some people lawfully, but it's gotta be in keeping with the purpose of the legislation.

Professor Paula Gerber: So if you recognize that Muslim women are not learning how to swim because they don't want to go into a swimming pool with men who they're not, are not the husbands, then it is okay for a public swimming pool to say we are gonna have a time, couple of hours on a Sunday afternoon, which the pool is open only to women.

Professor Paula Gerber: You can't say it's only open to lesbian women, or it's only open to women who aren't breastfeeding, or it's only open to women who aren't trans. So it's the Sex Discrimination Act, I say, is a shield rather than a sword. You can use it to protect your own rights, but not to attack somebody else's rights, which is what the Lesbian Action Group was trying to do.

Professor Paula Gerber: We've also seen the case of Tickle and Giggle. Which was in the federal court where the Giggle for Girls app was promoted as an online space for women only. Roxanne Tickle applied to join ai, reviewed a selfie that she uploaded and said, yes, you're a woman, and let her in. And seven months later, the CEO of the company looked at that same photo and said, no, that's not a woman.

Professor Paula Gerber: And, and kicked Roxanne off the app. Attempts to reconciliate or resolve it through negotiations didn't work. So it end up in the federal court. The federal court came down very clearly and said, you have discriminated against Roxanne ticker by having a women's only act, but not allowing trans women to be part of that.

Professor Paula Gerber: Uh, it's now been appealed and we're awaiting the decision of the, the full court of the federal court. I'm quietly confident that the, the lower court decision will be upheld. I think it's very clear cap discrimination, so that gives me hope, is seeing what the courts are doing, how they're interpreting our laws.

Professor Paula Gerber: And what also gives me hope is just seeing the, the results of polls about people's attitudes to, to trans rights here. And I think there's always more we can do, but we're starting from a, a good, solid base in terms of people not wanting to discriminate against trans people. I think what we need to do now is to increase.

Professor Paula Gerber: Educate people about trans people and, and their rights because I, I hear and see all the time people who can fuse sex and gender and sexual orientation and gender identity. And if you're a straight, cisgender person, you perhaps just haven't turned your mind to these things. And so a bit more education awareness would be a great, a great thing to see.

Archie: Yeah, and we are starting to see that a little bit more and hopefully there are allies who are listening who will, after listening to our conversation, go and educate themselves a bit more, and so that way they can be an informed ally and help the LGBTQ plus community as well. 

Professor Paula Gerber: Yes, exactly. I mean, that's what my book is all about, is just trying to empower people and give them the confidence to speak up and speak out about trans rights and about equality and, and how in Australia everyone is.

Professor Paula Gerber: Is equal and entitled to a fair go. 

Archie: And for allies listening, if they wanted to do just one simple thing, if you had one simple thing today to support trans and gender diverse people and the lgbtq plus community, what would you suggest? 

Professor Paula Gerber: I would say be inclusive. Really think about making sure that you are not subconsciously discriminating against people.

Professor Paula Gerber: So I'll always say, when I meet someone new, my pronouns are she hers. What are yours? Little things like that. Having your pronouns on your email footer. On your Zoom name description, just send a message that you are supportive and that that speaks volumes and we need more people who are willing to just step up and say, yep, I stand with trans people.

Archie: Yeah. And before we finish this episode, did you want to let our listeners know anything else about yourself, your book? 

Professor Paula Gerber: Probably just that they can get a copy of the book at any good bookstore or at the Monash University publishing. Website and it's also available, um, electronically through, you know, Amazon or any of those other places where you get your eBooks.

Professor Paula Gerber: But it's a very short book. It's the shortest one I've ever written, and it's very accessible for a, for an audience who's not necessarily very knowledgeable about either the law or trans. So, and maybe think about sharing it with someone else, even if you feel like you know it all. I'm seeing lots of people who are giving it to their.

Professor Paula Gerber: Their parents or their friends is a, you know, here's, here's an opportunity for you to. Have a good read and upskill a bit. 

Archie: Yeah. Amazing. And, uh, we'll put all the links to that in our show notes and, uh, we'll put links to your socials and that kind of stuff as well so people know where to find you. 

Professor Paula Gerber: Great.

Professor Paula Gerber: Thank you so much and thanks for the great work that you are doing to advocate for queer rights. We, we need your voices for sure. 

Archie: Thank 

Professor Paula Gerber: you. 

Archie: Well, you've, the list that you've done, I'm, I'm like, I'm not worthy. You've done an incredible job in Australia for lgbtq plus rights, so thank you so much. Oh, thanks so much.

Archie: Great talking with you. Thanks again, Paula. It's been a wonderful, wonderful time here chatting with you. I've learned a lot and even like just having this quick conversation, I've learned a lot. So those listening, definitely get onto the book and you'll learn a lot more as well. So thanks again. Thanks for your time, and until next time, I hope that we have been perfectly queer.