Let's be perfectly Queer Podcast

Casa Susanna

• Let's be perfectly Queer podcast • Season 3 • Episode 17

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Welcome to Let's Be Perfectly Queer Podcast, your go to LGBT Australian podcast for all things queer.

This week, we’re diving into a hidden piece of queer history Casa Susanna.

Back in the 1950s and ’60s, when living authentically could get you arrested, Susanna Valenti and her wife, Marie Tonell, opened their home to transgender women. It was a safe place for guests where they could live as themselves with no fear and no judgment.

But before we get there, we’re also unpacking what’s been going on in Australian sport with the AFL’s latest homophobic slur scandal. We have a discussion about the culture around men’s sport, and why Mitch Brown coming out as bisexual is such a big deal.

Here’s what we cover in this ep:
🏉 The AFL scandal and how supporters use “sledging” as a Homophobia excuse
🌈 Mitch Brown’s the first AFL player past or present to come out as Bisexual
🏠 The story of Casa Susanna and the people who found sanctuary there

It’s history, sport, and queer resilience all rolled into one episode, plus a few tangents along the way (you know us).

🎧 Grab your headphones and join us as we step into a world where being yourself was radical...and until next time, stay perfectly queer!


Archie & Katie 🌈






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Podcast: Let's Be Perfectly Queer Podcast

Episode Title: Casa Susanna: A House, A Haven, And a Home for Queer Identity

Host(s): Archie, Katie

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 Welcome to Let's Be Perfectly Queer, a queer podcast, creating space to talk about all things queer. My name is Archie. And I'm Katie. And we are your hosts. Questions of how you,

or somewhere in between. Let's be perfectly queer and we're back. And today we're talking about. Something called Casa Susanna. Oh, such a good episode. Yeah, so that's what today's main episode is. Before we get into that, just some quick stuff. It has been a big month and you know, a FL finals, it's big here in Australia.

So for those who are listening around the world, A FL is our Australian football league. It is our national sport. Yeah. And two, one, Hank, it's not soccer, it's not rugby, it's a different sport. It, yeah. So I was basically talking to someone online. It's closer to Gaelic. But it's still very Oh, game football.

Yeah. Yeah. But still very, very different. Yeah. Yeah. 'cause someone was like, is it closer to rugby or to American football? And I was like, neither. Yeah. Not at all. Look at those rules. Forget them and get a smaller ball. Yeah. Basically the, the football almost represents a grid iron ball, like and a rugby ball in the size and the shape.

But it's a different material. It's even smaller. It's smaller than a rugby ball. Yeah. Like a big rugby balls are bigger and they're very, like, I wasn't a rugby player. Oh, okay. Well, I played touch, well, no, I did play rugby in high school and I dislocated my finger. But anyway, yeah, that balls are bloody hard.

It hurts. Oh, no. It was on someone and not was on another person. But anyway, I went to like, go tackle them and my finger went tackled like that. Yeah. With my, my hands going. So, but it was this little f this, this little finger. It never fully went back. Anyway, for those who've been listening, it has been all over the news that Isaac Rankin, and I think he's from Adelaide, crows, said a homophobic slur to, I believe it was a Collingwood player.

Yeah. There's many arguments about exactly what was said, but there are inklings of what words were said and we're not gonna say it. There's been a, a lot of slack towards the a FL at the moment because of the way they handled the situation. Mm. And they, they said something about, you know, every time there is a slur that the weeks would increment.

So Isaac should have got five weeks and I think it came down to three or four. Yeah. And which, which really doesn't set a, when they said they wanted a set a precedence. Wow. A FL has been really known for, its. Misogyny, it's masculinity and uh, and it is a sport that a lot of young men in Australia grow up watching and idolizing these players.

And recently, Mitch Brown, a former West Coast Eagles player, is the first a FL player ever pastoral present to come out as bisexual. Yeah. Which is amazing. Which is. Amazing. Yes. Statistically impossible. Yeah, and really sad because it means that depending on like when in their journey, they realized that they were bisexual completely, but it just shows that while they were playing footy, it either wasn't a safe space or.

They could not fathom that part of themselves while they were in that profession. Yeah. And so a lot of people have said like, amazing. Well done. Congratulations, Mitch Brown. Yeah. And, and West Coast Eagles is a team that I support. Uh, they've been really bad this year, but that is a team that I support and so it That's really awesome that, you know, someone from the West Coast Eagles former player has come out after all of this.

You know, right now when it's hot topic has been brave enough to say, actually, I am a bisexual man. He was saying in interviews with, I think it's the daily Oz that, you know, he was questioning his sexuality, uh, when he was playing a FL and you can't, you know, it's not a safe place. And when in 129 years.

No male player before Mitch Brown has come out publicly. Yeah, 129 years. And it's one of the only sports in Australia where you do not have an out proud gay or bisexual man playing right now. And it's so sad because if you look, and this is not just football itself, because if you look at the female teams for football, which we do.

Which again, like all female sports don't have as much support or funding or anything like that, but a lot of our female sports stars are queer. Yeah. And so it's not football itself, it's the people who are representing the male teams throughout Australia who have created this culture of we don't worry if people, we.

We don't care if people will put you down if you're queer. But then again, like we were talking about the other day, is that they're not great with racist comments either, because even racist, sexist, any comments, even ageism actually, because like I understand that there's a certain thing of like, oh, he's passed his prime.

He can't do the same things that he's done previously. But it seems so much more derogatory in football. I feel like all the comments are so much more derogatory and it's their let slide. Yeah. It's, it's, it's been allowed to happen. And that's the thing with the A FL, they've created a culture that has allowed this racist, homophobic, sexist language to be a part of the game.

Yeah. And even reading all the comments about the Isaac, Isaac Rankin, a lot of them are like, oh, but they're just words. It's part of the culture. It's sledging. And it's like, but no, like why, what, why is this allowed in the A FL? It shouldn't be. It's not allowed anywhere else. Yeah. You know, it's not allowed in your workplace, so why are you allowed to then do it here on a football field?

And you know, a lot of people are like, but it's sledging. It's a different, if it's a different category, but no, that's different. You are using words that target a minority. Yeah. As a way to hurt other people and or to like, you know, get them off their game and that's just not okay. As well as the, like you were saying in football, people grow up in Australia with having football.

Yeah. As a kid everyone watches it as that. Yeah. I didn't wish I was quite happy with it anyway. Not the point. I don't really care for it, but not the. It's that you grow up with your families watching it and you see those football stars and they get paid big bucks and they get all the fame and they're the the people who you wanna be when you grow older.

Yeah. And by having that person as a role model and that person also being a person who degrades minorities and users. Those disgusting tactics to put others down, you're saying? Oh yeah, no, that's fine. Yeah. It's horrible. You're allowing, you're normalizing it because these guys are, they're public figures, right?

Yeah. And young men and young boys emulate that. And they copy the people they idolize. And you, you wonder why we get this behavior in high schools? Oh, it's terrible in high schools. Yeah. So it's, it's interesting that, you know, you see all this kind of stuff, uh, happen in the a FL with, we've taken a, a hard stance and then when they gave in an opportunity to, they backpedal.

Yeah. And you know, they've played the card about Isaac Rankin's mental health. But what about the mental health of every young little boy watching football and hearing those words? I remember going to a few games when I was younger, and the language and the homophobia, the racism, it's just disgusting. It is, yeah.

But also Paul form for any, now, any player who's queer in football at the moment, and that's why Mitch Brown doing that right now. It's so brave with all the. Talk still about Isaac Rankin, about the homophobia, about what's allowed in the A FL. Mitch Brown has been exceptionally brave in stepping forward and being like I, if I'm the first person to lead the step forward.

Yeah. He's hoping that that will be the next generation to say actually. So might because you'd never see any of the men with their male partner at any of the wards? No. Yeah, because it's not. The culture's not allowed for it to be a safe place to bring your same sex partner. Yeah. Yeah. What a disappointing thing.

Anyway, with that disappointment, let's get into today's lovely episode about Casa Susanna. On this episode, we are talking about Casa Susanna. Have you heard about this before? No, never. So just a quick trigger warning. In this episode, we mentioned some outdated terms in reference to resources and research that we found for this episode, and it might be upsetting to some listeners.

Just a reminder to please take care when listening. So let's start with basics. What exactly was Casa Susanna? Well. It was a house owned by Susanna Valenti and her wife, Marie Toenail. It was located in the Catskills, just outside New York City in the late 1950s and early 1960s. This house became a secret haven for trans women and men who enjoyed cross-dressing.

They were also often accompanied by their wives. Oh, what a fabulous place. So Casa Susanna was a place that men who enjoyed cross-dressing and trans women could be themselves. Dress how they wanted live as women and just exist without fear. It was a safe place where people could explore their gender identity and expression, something they couldn't do in their everyday.

So Valenti and Ton opened their doors to people seeking a safe, private place where they could express their gender identity. At the time. This was incredibly important. Many of the people who visited the house were facing intense discrimination both socially and legally simply for expressing themselves.

Casa Susanna offered a place where they could connect with others, live authentically, and support each other in a world that didn't understand or accept them. I can imagine it just being a breath of fresh air in a very oppressive life. A hundred percent. And somewhere that you can feel safe and feel normal around your peers is so important.

Yeah. And right now it's a place that, with the current climate, it, it is still needed. I feel like there's been a couple of movies about this. Maybe it really rings a bell in my mind. Maybe this was all sort of time when being out could mean being locked up or worse. This place gave them a safe haven and the courage to live more openly in a world that didn't make it easy.

As researcher Sophie Hackett noted. Many of the individuals at Casta, Susanna were trying to understand feelings that went against how they were raised as men in 1950s and sixties America. In a post-war American culture that promoted a very traditional view of family life, the suburban home with strict gender roles, and it would've been quite difficult in that time because, I mean, apart from being in a society that told you that you were wrong, it's not like you could also explore those emotions with your partner because the ideas behind this were very taboo at the moment.

So even being open with your partner, even if you had a really good relationship, they were less likely or would be incredibly unlikely to be supportive or understand. Mm-hmm. That you feel different to what was classed as normal at the time. Yeah. Sad. It seemed that Casta Susanna was lost in history until 2004 when a collection of photographs were discovered.

So let's quickly talk about the photos. Pictures of the scene were rare as people were afraid they might be arrested or blackmailed if they got found out. So when photos were discovered, they were able to give some form of insight into what it was like for those who called Casta Susanna home. The photos were first found at a New York City flea market in 2004 by two art dealers, then later bought by the Art Gallery of Ontario in 2015.

This group of 340 images is just a part of a much larger collection. Some of which are now owned by artists, Cindy Sherman. Ooh. These photographs also inspired a book called Casta Susanna, the story of the First Trans Network in the United States, 1959 to 1968. This publication brought the story of Casta Susanna to an even wider audience, and its impact can still be felt today.

In recent years, we've seen documentaries, books, and even Broadway plays like Casa Valentina that were inspired by Casa Susanna's story. These photographs taken so many years ago have helped fuel a renewed conversation about gender expression, the history of trans rights, and how far the community has come.

They also remind us of how important it's to preserve these kind of histories, especially when so many stories of trans people have been overlooked or forgotten in recent years. These photos have gained interest from artists, researchers, and activists exploring the connection between queer identity photography and art.

Other similar archives have also been discovered, like the Lewis Lawrence Transgender Archive, one of the most important legacies of CAA Susanna, comes from the photographs taken there. These weren't just ordinary photos. They were intimate personal snapshots that captured the lives of the people who spent time at caa.

Susanna. These images were taken by people who were often excluded from mainstream photography. These photos are more than just pictures. They were a powerful form of self-expression. I can imagine them being really beautiful in a way. Mm-hmm. Because they would paint a story of what oppression was happening.

Yeah. But also the type of freedom and. Joy they felt in that small private space. Yeah, I've seen some of the photos and they're really beautiful. Yeah. And it's just, they just look like a bunch of friends hanging out, having the best time and enjoying each other's company and free and just they're, you can see that they're just happy to be exploring their gender expression and, and who they are and yeah, it's really beautiful.

That's gorgeous. Yeah. I'll put some of the photos, uh, when we, thank you when we post the, this episode up. The photographs show people laughing, posing, and living their lives authentically. They're not just about capturing a moment, they're about creating a narrative of visibility for a community that had little orbit.

Many of these images were later traded within the community, shared like baseball cards as some people put it, and they became a way to connect with others to feel seen and understood. That is so cool. Yeah. So let's take a closer look at the people behind Casa Susanna. At the heart of this space was Susanna Valenti.

Valenti was a trans woman who played a key role in creating and nurturing the community at Casa Susanna. She was also a court translator as a femme presenting person. She became a model for others who are struggling with their gender identity, providing both support and guidance. So that was Susanna?

Yes. Of caa. Susanna. That's why it's called caa. Susanna. Yeah. I didn't realize that they were a trans lady. Oh. Oh yeah. Well, yeah, I've got to that part. I feel like that's a big part to it. Thanks. Well, I did say Susanna and wife, so anyway, and she's a lesbian. Lesbians can be trans or non-trans. I love it how I said trans and non-trans as if trans the norm.

Everyone else is just non-trans. So Susanna's wife, Marie Tonne was also an integral part of the Casta Susanna story. Tonne who ran a wig shop in New York City helped create the network of people who visited Casta. Susanna. The house itself was a retreat from the outside world where guests could relax, dress how they pleased, and be themselves without fear of judgment.

How cool was it that she was a, she owned a wig shop? I know. That's so cool. Also, I wonder if that's how they met. No idea. Oh, I didn't go into that much detail Tidbits. I love how the things that you find interesting in the things that I find interesting is like, I'm like the love story and I'm like, yeah, she was a wig.

Wig lady. Wig shop lady. She was a wig lady. People from all walks of life came to Casta, Susanna. There were people like Gloria, a millionaire from Michigan, Jessica a Colombian, hes and Felicity, an airline pilot and World War II veteran. Each of them brought their U own unique experiences and struggles, but they all found a sense of community and belonging at Casa Susanna.

Also, I love the fact that you just said three boss ladies. Yeah, right. All the matters. What I find interesting are some articles and resources, say Casta Susanna was for cross-dressing men who were exclusively heterosexual. Which would explain why their wives were there as well, but I think it was more like, you know, they may have been masking their true identity or putting on a, a facade of what the everyday like American life.

Yeah. You know, I think you've gotta take it all with a pinch of salt and understand there's a lot of context that in essence has been lost with us not living in that timeline. Yeah. And understanding the feelings of people who are from that timeline. Yeah, and in a lot of articles and research I did find as well, they were referring to Valenti as he, and that was kind of really frustrating.

Oh, that feels yuck. Yeah. So I didn't like that at all when they were doing that. No. Valenti had once streamed of turning caa, Susanna into a hotel and living full-time as a woman. But when Tonne had a serious accident in 1967, oh, Valenti had to go back to living as a man to cover the medical costs. She stopped writing a column in Trans Vestia and lost contact with Virginia Prince, who was one of the creators of, uh, transa.

And Casta Susanna was sold in 1972. Oh, that's so sad. Yeah. So Transvestite was a magazine and it was, and it was launched and written by Virginia Prince in 1960. And at the time it was a magazine by and for transvestites. And that's why when I said the, the trigger warning earlier. Yeah. Fair. And it was aimed to create a, a space for people interested in gender expression.

And Susanna wrote a column called Susanna Says. That's really cute. Also, many of the photos were also featured in the magazine as well. I hope they had advertising for the wigs. Good question. I hope they did. Surely they would've. So in the early 1980s, Valenti and Turnell began living apart and Valenti continued living openly as a woman until she passed away.

They lived apart. Yeah. Were they separated? Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Oh, that's so sad. Both Valenti and to passed away in 1996. So these photos in the story of CAA Susanna, show us that the trans community has always been here finding ways to express themselves, support one another, and build community even in hard times.

We fast forward to today, we're living in a time when trans rights are under increasing legal and political pressure and visibility for the trans community is constantly at risk. That's why the story of Casta, Susanna, and its photographs is so important. These photographs are more than just historical records.

They're proof that the trans community has always existed. Even when society didn't recognize it, they show us that the trans people have always found ways to express themselves, connect with others, and support one another even in the face of adversity. What a beautiful story. I love that. So to wrap up caa, Susanna wasn't just a house, it was a sanctuary, a place of self-expression, and a reminder that trans people have always had the desire to live authentically regardless of society's pressures.

What happened at Casta? Susanna was a small but significant part of the larger story of queer liberation. It helped lay the foundation for the communities we have today, and it reminds us that even in times of struggle, there is power in coming together and supporting one another. Absolutely. Oh, that is gorgeous.

Thank you so much for bringing that to the pod. So this episode was recommended by a previous guest of our podcast, Wendy Cole. So she was telling me all about this place and what it was, and I never heard about it before. So I needed to go on a deep dive, and I spent a good few weeks trying to clate all the different things and what I wanted to keep in and what I wanted to keep out.

And so the spark notes of what Casa Susanna is, I just found out that they, there's no record of when or where Susanna died. So, um, Susanna was Latin American and she immigrated to the US in the mid 1940s. And Maria was Italian American. Yeah. Both of their deaths were unre recordable in public public archives.

Why is that? I wonder if it's because of the affiliation with the queer community. I'm not sure. 1996 though, who knows? I dunno. Should we wrap this episode up? Yeah, it says Susanna's last public presence was in 1979, and the absence of any further traces, gosh, how haunting. Yeah, but what a beautiful story of love.

Yeah. For the community, love and acceptance and finding your own community. In times when things are tough, and I think, you know, it's, it's kind of reminiscence of what's happening now around the world, especially in places like the US and the UK who have gone backwards. How important community is and finding your own little.

Sanctuary and safe haven in your own little casta. Susanna, if you wanna learn more about Casta, Susanna, I'm gonna post a whole bunch of links. If you wanna go down the deep dive like I did, you can also watch the documentary and uh, and there's a book as well that you can get your little eyes on and read.

I dunno, I'm going with what If You've got Big Eyes, you get Your Big Eyes if you want to. So that's, that's been this episode and I do hope that you enjoyed this little episode, and if you did, it would absolutely mean the world if you'd give us a quick rate review. Or subscribe on whatever you are listening to us on and give us five stars 'cause you love us.

It would be nice. Thanks for listening all the way to the end and following along on this beautiful journey of caster, Susanna. Yeah, thank you guys. And until next time, I hope that we have been perfectly queer.

Let's be perfectly.