Hinge Love Beyond Labels with Moe Ari Brown

Welcome to Let's Be Perfectly Queer Podcast, your go to LGBT Australian podcast for all things queer.

This week, we’re diving into Hinge’s Love Beyond Labels Report with Moe Ari Brown, licensed therapist and Hinge’s Love & Connection Expert. 

Are traditional gender and sexuality labels holding us back? Why are more queer daters rejecting rigid categories and what does “label fatigue” actually mean? That is what we are tackling in this episode. 

We break down:
✅ Why labels can feel suffocating even when they once helped us
✅ The rise of “label fluidity” and how it’s changing queer dating
✅ How to date beyond your “type” (and why it’s worth it)
✅ The future of emotional safety in LGBTQIA+ relationships

Plus, Moe shares personal stories about navigating identity, the pressure to “perform” for others, and why healing happens in connection. Whether you’re tired of boxes or just curious about dating differently, this episode is packed with heart, humour, and real-world advice.

🎧 So grab your headphones, learn something new... and until next time, stay perfectly queer!

Archie & Katie 🌈

Moe Ari Brown:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/loveoutproud

Website: https://theemoeari.com/

Hinge:

Newsroom: https://hinge.co/newsroom/2025-LGBTQ-Report

Love Beyond Labels Report: The Report

Transcript

Podcast: Let's Be Perfectly Queer Podcast

Episode Title: Hinge Love Beyond Labels Report with Moe Ari Brown

Host(s): Archie

Guest(s): Moe Ari Brown

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Archie (Host) | 00:00:04 to 00:00:29
Welcome to let's Be Perfectly Queer, a queer podcast creating space to talk about all things queer. My name is Archie and I'm joined today by Hinge's love and connection expert, Mo Ari Brown. Questions of how you identify, seeking answers to clarify whether Queen or somewhere in between. Let's be Perfectly queer. Hi, Mo, welcome to the show.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:00:30 to 00:00:43
Thank you so much for having me, Archie. I'm excited to be here. We are so excited to have you back. Welcome back. Because we had you on season one, I think you were our first guest ever, so welcome back.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:00:43 to 00:00:54
I don't know that I realised that. That is an honour. You didn't realise that? Well, we should have told you at the time, My bad. But we were you first guest ever and ever since then we've had a lot of guests, especially in the us.

Archie (Host) | 00:00:54 to 00:01:12
We've had a lot of guests in the US that want to jump on, even though we're an Australian podcast, which I think is funny. But it means that we have to organise the weird time zone stuff that happens because right now for me it's 7:00am and I think it's 7:00pm where you are. Absolutely. So we are definitely. This is like our perfect meeting window.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:01:12 to 00:01:22
If you like being a morning person. Exactly. If you don't, then I don't mind. I'm very happy to accommodate. Either way, it's either I get up early and get my day started or I stay up late and keep going.

Archie (Host) | 00:01:22 to 00:01:48
Either one. On today's episode, everyone, before I get distracted by chatting. We are looking at some key findings from the hinged Love Beyond Labels report, as well as taking a closer look at why queer daters are pushing back on gender and sexuality categories, which I found really interesting in the report and I'm really excited to hear you talk about that. But for those who missed our last episode with you, did you want to quickly tell our listeners just a little bit about who you are and what you do? I'm happy to.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:01:48 to 00:02:03
Thank you so much for the intro already. So my name is Mo Arie. I am a licenced marriage and family therapist. I use they, them or he him pronouns. I'm also Hinge's love and connection expert, which I know you gathered by now.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:02:04 to 00:02:34
I have been practising as a therapist for the past decade plus, or like 12 years or more. And I've worked with people across the spectrum of identity. I identify as non binary, transgender. And so through my journey of gender transition, I developed a specialty in working with our community, helping people to get medically necessary care and then Educating other therapists on how to create gender affirming practises. So that's a part of my work.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:02:34 to 00:02:58
And then the other part of my work has always been working with individuals, families, couples around relationships. And I think that the relationships are really central to our lives. Connection is central to our lives. And so even if I'm working with an individual, we are likely talking about relationships. I don't think I've had a session yet where we're not talking about the people that we care about or love.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:02:58 to 00:03:11
So that is something that. That sticks with me. I believe that most of us are pursuing those just very similar things. I say that those things are belonging, authenticity and love. I'm sure all that keeps you busy.

Archie (Host) | 00:03:11 to 00:03:35
You've got a lot of different hands and different pots there, but they all kind of connect. And relationships are very important. And when you are a part of the queer community, relationships can be a lifeline and people sometimes forget that. And it is fairly sad when you see that some people don't really understand where they fit based on society showing them what relationships should look like. Yeah, that is so true.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:03:35 to 00:04:12
I think a lot of people in our community, myself included, have gotten so many messages about who we are supposed to be in order to be worthy of love, in order to have love. We've also been taught, I like to. I often am saying, and I hate that I have to say it actually is that, like, we're often taught more times than how to love. We're taught who to be in love, who we should love, but nobody really teaches us what it's like to be in relationship or gives us a blueprint on how to do that well and, like, how to do that whole and healed. And so that's where I see my work in the world.

Archie (Host) | 00:04:12 to 00:04:24
And you're doing very, very important work. Oh, thank you. Talking about all this, do you remember the first time you felt like a label didn't quite fit you? Yes. Mm.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:04:24 to 00:05:00
I have a number of moments across my, like, just. Just my life journey, I think the one that stands out is actually prior to gender transition. So I was pretty femme presenting, I would say, like in my early 20s and like leaving. Leaving college especially, but I was, like, dating women and I remember someone saying that I was a lesbian and I don't think I knew then that I was transgender, but I knew that lesbian did not fit. And I had such a huge visceral reaction and I had to check in with myself, like, are we not proud of who we are?

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:05:00 to 00:05:32
Like, what is this visceral But I was like, this does not fit. And I was very much like, at least call me bisexual or something, but it was something very gendered about lesbian that just really didn't align. And I couldn't name it then, but I remember that label feeling imposed on me. So I can relate to a lot of what daters shared with us in our hinge LGBTQIA + date report from this year around, you know, just wanting more expansive ways of identifying that don't box us in. Yeah.

Archie (Host) | 00:05:32 to 00:05:47
And I can definitely also relate to that as being a trans man myself. And I went through the different labels. So I went through, okay, I grew up Catholic, which also doesn't help. So I grew up Catholic. And then I said, well, no, I'm bisexual.

Archie (Host) | 00:05:47 to 00:05:54
I was never bisexual. I was never interested in men. It was to help other people make sense of it. You know, your Catholic mother. And then I said I was trans.

Archie (Host) | 00:05:54 to 00:06:02
I said I was non binary. Well, gender fluid. And then I was like, still didn't fit until I went to trans man. And that fits for me. And I think that some listeners forget that.

Archie (Host) | 00:06:02 to 00:06:09
That your identity and the so called labels are actually fluid. Yeah. And you don't have to be boxed in. Yeah. Yeah.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:06:09 to 00:06:47
Because we're evolving constantly. I say the only constant is change. And I've seen so many people, whether you're transgender or not, go through life transitions that end up evolving our labels and identities. So many of us can relate to going from, let's say, adolescence to adulthood, or even from college to your first job, or from one relationship that you spent maybe a long time in to being single. These are identity shifts or evolutions that end up changing how we identify.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:06:47 to 00:07:05
And they don't always feel like that's what's happening, but they come with. They come with real shifts in our identities and how people see us. Yeah, 100%. And it's really good that Hinge has taken this feedback and they're making a change. I think that's incredible because I think we told you last time, both Katie and I met on Hinge.

Archie (Host) | 00:07:05 to 00:07:16
So we do thank Hinge, because if it wasn't for Hinge, we met during COVID And yeah, so it did change our lives. And if it wasn't for Hinge, we might not even have this podcast. Didn't even think about that. Wow. So thank you, Hinge.

Archie (Host) | 00:07:16 to 00:07:27
Thank you very much. There you have it. I love that. Yeah. In the report, it does say that 28 of LGBTQIA/ datas experience label fatigue.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:07:27 to 00:07:43
Yeah. I've never heard of this before seeing this in the report. What does label fatigue mean? Yeah, label fatigue is really a way of describing what it. What it feels like when labels actually become restrictive.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:07:43 to 00:08:16
So we know that labels have been, especially for the LGBTQIA community, a very powerful way of expressing ourselves, celebrating our identities, living authentically and openly, proudly. And then there are moments, I think, where labels live beyond that purpose, and they start to get to the. Into the territory where labels begin to dictate who we are. And so if you ever. The difference is a label can help us to describe who we are.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:08:16 to 00:08:41
That's like the use of language, and it's beautiful. It's helpful. But when the label then becomes something that we have to live up to or we feel as though we have to perform, then the label has likely lived beyond its useful purpose, and it's now creating what we call a hinge label fatigue. And so it was. That whole term was actually has been created by hinge.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:08:41 to 00:08:59
You know, I do believe that's how we're identifying what we found in the report. Now, I'm sure other people have. Have creatively thought of, like, how to describe this, but we're. We're coining it over here at Hinge based on our data from the LGBTQIA plus day report. Yeah, it does make sense.

Archie (Host) | 00:08:59 to 00:09:12
And so with this whole idea of label fatigue, have you personally ever felt boxed in by labels or felt label fatigue? Absolutely. Absolutely. I'm like, where do I even begin? I think it's in.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:09:12 to 00:10:03
I love that we can relate on trans identity and, like, the evolution of. I like gender, for one. So for me, I think feeling boxed in by labels probably started when I figured out I'm transgender, and I need to expand beyond how people have seen me up until this point. And so there were so many moments in my own gender transition where people were still wanting to either call me the name I used to have or which is a label, or wanting to see, like, still interact with me in the way that they've always had me. I think those moments felt the most boxed in for me, where I didn't feel like I get to expand or evolve or change without creating discomfort or change for other people.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:10:04 to 00:10:22
And I think those moments also offered me an opportunity to reframe the moment for. For the people I'm in relationship with. So there's. There's expansion that could feel challenging, but there's also a lot of possibility and newness that comes with it. So it was an opportunity for me to have deep conversations.

Archie (Host) | 00:10:22 to 00:10:38
Oh, yeah, I totally get that. So, for me, I think I didn't have the words for it, but thank you, Hinge. I now understand what I was going through when I was younger because I was not a feminine person at all, you know, so I always got, you know, girls don't do that. Girls don't do this. So.

Archie (Host) | 00:10:38 to 00:10:51
And so I always felt like when what I was doing was wrong. Yeah. Because I didn't have the words to say, well, this is how I feel. You know, girls don't run around the house without a shirt on. Like, you know, these kind of things that as a kid, you don't realise, and.

Archie (Host) | 00:10:51 to 00:11:17
And then going through a Catholic school, it's very like, this is what men do, this is what women do or boys and girls do. So I totally understand that idea of. Of label fatigue, because it doesn't only affect the LGBTQIA community, it can affect people who are not super feminine. People who are not super masculine because they have to fit into this masculine and feminine label as well. Yeah, I relate 1,000%.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:11:18 to 00:11:58
I felt so many versions of myself as you were talking, so I just really appreciate your. Your candour, your authenticity and sharing that. I know so many people listening probably can relate to, even if they're trans or not, but to, like, being told, this is what you have to do in order to be the appropriate version of your gender. And there are so many people that are probably listening that are cisgender women, for instance, who are told, like, girls don't have short hair. And so when I'm doing, like, trainings with people, even cisgender people, I talk about exactly what you're talking about.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:11:59 to 00:12:12
This pressure to perform who we are. Those labels end up becoming restrictive in those. In those moments. And so, hearing from you, I really relate. I had many of those moments, even though I was fem presenting.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:12:12 to 00:12:50
There was a part of me that wanted to stand to pee or wanted to, like, spit outside or do things that aren't necessarily gender. But I was definitely told, like, well, I guess standing to pee is gendered, but I was told girls don't get to do that. And so I remember feeling my first limitations being imposed. And I want people to really understand what it does to the psyche of any young person when they're told that their possibilities are limited just based on their gender, their skin colour or any other category. It.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:12:50 to 00:13:05
It. It's harmful, actually. Yeah, it definitely is. And you're actually harming someone's growth by putting a label on them that doesn't fit them or a label that is too restrictive. And in the report, you talk about this idea of label fluidity.

Archie (Host) | 00:13:06 to 00:13:23
Did you want to go into a bit about what that is? Yeah. Label fluidity is essentially identifying in a way that is more flexible, that is evolving, that is open to. To change. So.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:13:23 to 00:14:14
So we learn a lot from our LGBTQIA daters at Hinge. And in the report, we found that daters are wanting to move beyond like, this, this label fatigue that we've discovered and discover that people are experiencing it. And daters are wanting to just, like, be their authentic selves, wanting to be accepted for their authentic selves. And I think the thing that's the most challenging in moments with dating around being authenticity is wondering if the other person is going to receive you well. And so while people are wanting to be more authentic, wanting to be more fluid, or date beyond their typical type, even, I think that there's pressure often to stay within a box.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:14:14 to 00:14:41
So when we think about label fluidity, certainly daters are wanting to be more expansive and we are still finding that people feel this pressure to perform. So what tips or how can our listeners fully embrace label fluidity and avoid misconnections? Because that is something that can happen if you are not fluid with your labels. Correct. You can miss those connections that you don't realise are out there.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:14:41 to 00:15:04
Yeah, you could totally signal openness, like on your profile. So that's something that I'd. I'd suggest is like signalling openness on your profile to dating beyond your typical type. So maybe you'd say something, you say something like. You could even say, I'm as cliche as that might sound, you could say, I'm open to loving beyond the labels.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:15:04 to 00:15:21
You know, if there. If we vibe, hit me up type of thing, just like showing that you're wanting to be more expansive. But if you're talking about your own labels and you're. You're wanting to share that you're more fluid. You have a lot of different features where you could share your.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:15:21 to 00:15:46
Your identity on your profile. So whether that's like, in response to a prompt or in your match note, which actually is a feature where it's basically like, almost like an automatic reply, once you match with someone, they'll be prompted with a note before you even engage in a conversation that says a little bit about you. So that's another way in which you could share more about your. Your labels. Hey, I'm in a place where I'm pretty.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:15:46 to 00:16:00
Feeling pretty fluid, and so this is how I identify. And that's like a great place to share those parts of your identity. So I'm thinking, like, expressing that on your profile is probably a great place to start. Yeah. And that's such a cool feature that you have that little note as well.

Archie (Host) | 00:16:00 to 00:16:13
It's like, hey, by the way, you're putting it out there before you even have the first conversation. I think that's wonderful. And I also love that dating beyond the labels. It's such a nice little saying. I can't find the words.

Archie (Host) | 00:16:13 to 00:16:28
It's such a nice thing to be like, you know, labels don't mean anything to me. I love the person, or I want to connect with the person on the other side. A label is just a label. And I think sometimes people are too stressed about labels, and that's where the label fatigue comes in. And.

Archie (Host) | 00:16:28 to 00:16:46
Or they're too boxed in. And then, like I said before, they miss connections because they don't allow themselves to be open and to explore. And sometimes that comes from their background and their upbringing. And it can be harder for some people to open up to the labels, which is sad. But we are seeing that some people are able to be a bit more open.

Archie (Host) | 00:16:46 to 00:17:06
But it is sad that there are still some people out there, based on their upbringing and their values brought into them by their family, their friends, that they still can't find the place to open up just yet, which is a little bit sad. Yeah. Yeah. I think you said that, like, pretty meaningfully, that plenty of people are still having struggles. I could not have said that better.

Archie (Host) | 00:17:06 to 00:17:09
Why, thank you. I try. I try. That's why I'm a podcast host.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:17:11 to 00:17:21
The therapist in me is just like, yes. Empathy, warmth. I'm sending people love. I love that I'm getting bonus points from a therapist. You heard it here.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:17:21 to 00:17:39
Absolutely. This was the thing that I found the most interesting. That gay hinge daters are 183% less likely than others in the LGBTQIA + community to have changed the label they use to define their sexuality. Why is that? Yeah, that's a good question.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:17:40 to 00:18:11
You know, I. I think across the spectrum of identity, we're finding that daters are wanting to expand beyond categories and labels. And I think for some daters, it's true that they feel confident and comfortable in their identities. And. And so I think ongoing, we'll continue to find that you'll have daters who are embracing more fluidity, and then you'll have daters for which identity feels a little bit more fixed. And that's okay.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:18:11 to 00:18:39
There's, like, room at the table for everybody. And I'm, you know, I think it's a beautiful moment to have people feel so confident about who they are, whether it's that they're fluid or whether it's that their identity is a little bit more fixed. Yeah, and I guess this is me just making assumptions. But gay daters have always had a lot more backlash and so I think they have to be a lot more certain in themselves when they do come out. That's how I feel.

Archie (Host) | 00:18:39 to 00:19:08
But that was just me making a guess because you know, back in the day and still today I feel like if you are gay it because of the ideas of masculinity and the patriarchy, it is going against the so called status quo. And so therefore maybe in gay men or people who identify as gay, they just have to be really certain in themselves. And maybe that's why the label hasn't changed. But that's just me guessing, but I have no idea. You know, I mean it's a really great and educated guess.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:19:08 to 00:19:54
I think anything it sounds like what I'm hearing in that is that there is true one. I just want to validate that's accurate. Like I think within the community there have been a lot of pressure like over time around like gender, how we identify and so what you're saying like absolutely makes a lot of sense to me and I'm like extremely curious as well. And from what I've seen from I would say like daters across the the spectrum of identity. It's true that these external pressures to perform or to show up in a particular way or to identify in one way or another definitely can influence our labels or like how we show up.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:19:54 to 00:20:18
But I'm really curious about this answer too. So it'd be interesting when more data comes out, more research comes out and seeing why these numbers are the way they are. Also what I find interesting and we're talking about putting on a label and gender and you're looking at performance and et cetera with society they sometimes put a label on ourselves without us even doing it. So I everybody knows TikTok. There's a beautiful, I think they're from the Philippines.

Archie (Host) | 00:20:18 to 00:20:44
Nurse, male nurse who is married with a wife. But because of the way that their mannerisms are, everybody automatically labelled them as gay even though they weren't. And when they came out with a wife and stuff they're like, you're lying, you're lying. It's like, well actually you're putting a label on them that they never ever said. It kind of goes into what I want to ask next in the report you talk about assumptions based on appearances or labels can prevent the actual person from being fully seen.

Archie (Host) | 00:20:45 to 00:21:00
And so with this person, that was what it was like. Like, you're. You're putting a label on someone and you're boxing them into something that they're not, and that's not who they are. If you allow them to just be themselves, you are seeing the full version of themselves. But if you're not, you're labelling them and they haven't said anything.

Archie (Host) | 00:21:00 to 00:21:26
So with that idea, do you want to delve into that a little bit more about, like, assumptions and appearances and how that can prevent an actual person from being seen? Yeah. I mean, again, you said it absolutely beautifully. And, yeah, first, the therapist part of me, again, just wants to validate that that's painful. It's painful to show up in the world as your authentic self and then have labels projected onto you.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:21:26 to 00:22:04
And so it resonates. It tracks with what we're hearing from a lot of hinge daters around fluidity, wanting to expand for this reason, because these assumptions can end up being harmful, and they can also box us in or put that pressure on us to perform. So instead of this person getting to be their authentic self, maybe now they've felt pressure to show up in a way that is universally read as masculine and heterosexual in order for people to not make assumptions. And I think that that's, like, so challenging to deal with. I can relate to this as a transgender person.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:22:04 to 00:22:29
Even. Even in transition, there's a bit of pressure, especially when you identify as, like, masculine in my. In my case, for people to. There's a lot of pressure from people to want me to show up as, like, what they traditionally understand masculine to mean. And when you say you're non binary, there are a lot of questions, eyebrows, and, like, what does that mean?

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:22:30 to 00:22:55
And, yeah, like, I just really relate to that pressure to perform or to lean into the assumption. It is hard as well, because sometimes when society puts you in or gives you a label, then you start to question yourself too. Yeah. Which is even a bigger journey to go on because you're like, wait, am I doing the wrong thing? Because I like acting this way, but they're saying that I'm completely different or they're putting this label on me.

Archie (Host) | 00:22:55 to 00:23:09
So there's. There's that as well, which can be scary for someone who's just trying to be themselves. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's all of us just wanting to be accepted for being ourselves. Yeah.

Archie (Host) | 00:23:10 to 00:23:26
And in the report as well, it says that 45% of queer daters have considered dating someone outside their usual gender preference, which is amazing. I didn't realise it was that high. But many don't act on it. What holds people back, in your opinion? Yeah, you know, so many things.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:23:26 to 00:24:04
And, you know, one of the things that we really identified through the report is overthinking. Definitely. People reported not acting on that, dating outside of their typical type because they are worried that they're not going to be received or they're wondering, like, will this person actually be interested in me? Because I don't have any data from dating to tell me that this kind of person would be interested in me. And so there's, you know, it's a bit of an exploration or a journey outside of one's comfort zone to date someone different.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:24:04 to 00:24:30
So we identified also in the report what we are calling the type cycle. And that's like somebody wanting to date beyond their typical type or the. A person of a gender identity or sexual orientation that they're typically interacting with. And instead of dating that new person that they've realised they have attraction to, they end up dating the same kind of person that they typically are drawn to. So we're calling this the type cycle.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:24:30 to 00:24:56
And if you're interested in getting out of the type cycle, then we have to, like, really figure out first, like, what's getting us stuck. So if it's overthinking, then my therapist brain wants to say that we have to really understand that narrative that we're telling ourselves. If it's like this kind of person won't like me, then we have to, like, change our thought process, our belief system about that. And maybe it's. It's a reframe.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:24:57 to 00:25:15
It's like a. I don't know if this person will like me. Not just like, they won't. It's a. Can we be curious about it long enough to allow for possibility? Because that possibility is what gives us hope and then hope changes our belief system and then we do something different and then all of a sudden we're dating someone different.

Archie (Host) | 00:25:15 to 00:25:30
And, you know, it works in the movies, right? So it's got to work in real life. People always go for someone that's out of their type and then they find true love. Yeah, well, I love the idea of, like, expanding. Expanding our capacity to.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:25:31 to 00:25:54
To love, to date beyond our comfort zone. So I think our comfort zone sometimes is just what we're familiar with. And sometimes what we're familiar with isn't necessarily always what is the most aligned. And so if you're open and you're listening. Consider dating from alignment and, and that could be a more broad reach or subsection of people if you explore.

Archie (Host) | 00:25:55 to 00:26:12
Yeah, I love that. Expanding the mindset and going beyond labels. There's such great things that's coming out. Some great words of wisdom coming out from you. Would you also recommend that if someone wants to date out of the type cycle but they don't know where to start, would the idea to, to go and see a relationship therapist, would that help?

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:26:13 to 00:26:37
Oh, I mean, I am. I of course would say yes. See a relationship therapist. Therapy is a really great place to start. And then if therapy isn't a resource that you can afford or it's not like within your, your reach, I think sitting with yourself and asking yourself, what patterns are you noticing within the people that you're dating?

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:26:38 to 00:26:52
And then of the things that you notice that the people that you date have in common. I want you to ask yourself if you like those things that they have in common. Don't judge what you write down. Don't second guess. Just kind of go with your, your train of thought.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:26:52 to 00:27:06
Do you like the things that you notice that they have in common? Of those things that you notice that you like, great. Those are probably things we want to keep. Other things that you notice that you're like. This is actually problematic that they have these things in common.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:27:06 to 00:27:31
That's where we want to start making different, different changes. We don't want to just change it to something else arbitrarily. We want to make sure that we're intentional about we. What we shift into. So if you're saying, hey, I actually don't like the people that I date consistently don't initiate conversations with me and I'm really wanting to stop over functioning in relationships.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:27:31 to 00:27:53
I don't like that they don't initiate. You don't want to just like say, okay, then I just, I want to change to people who send the first message that on the head sounds great, but that doesn't mean that they're an initiator. So I want you to think more deeply about that. How else might someone show you that they're making initiative? And so you want to be like very intentional about how you're, you're shifting your type.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:27:53 to 00:28:17
Now that's not about gender or identity, but I'm giving a general example. I know that a lot of my friends used to give me a lot of crap because some of the people that I used to date were not great for me. They weren't. And I based on things like what I thought should be my type as a quote unquote lesbian. So I went for people that I would not go for now having grown up and realised who I am.

Archie (Host) | 00:28:17 to 00:29:05
But it's, it's a journey and like they say, you have to kiss a lot of frogs before you find, find the prince. But you know, in my, in my case the princess. But I do find it quite interesting that when I allowed myself to actually date someone who matched my interests, who was what I wanted in another person, who I could see as a life partner, that's when I felt a true connection where other connections for me prior were very shallow. And it was all about the look of what I should be in a relationship with or the idea. And I allowed a lot of harmful behaviours from exes or I allowed a lot of red flags because I thought I had to keep trying with these people because that's what I was brought up to believe is you try really, really hard with the person whether they're right or wrong.

Archie (Host) | 00:29:05 to 00:29:32
But I think now we need to look at. It's not about trying hard with the wrong person, it's about finding the connection with the right person, finding your TR through connection. And it is hard when you see your friends go through it as well and you see friends going for people who you're like, okay, but is there a connection there? Because we can't see that. And are you doing this for other reasons and because I've been in those shoes and I've done it because I thought it was what I had to do and I shouldn't be alone and all those kind of things.

Archie (Host) | 00:29:32 to 00:29:49
But sometimes it's better to be alone and find your true connection than to force a connection that's not there. Oh, I love, I love the advice you're giving right there. Yeah, you're really talking about alignment. I love thinking about when we think about alignment. I love your story too.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:29:49 to 00:30:13
Like what it's like to date from like who you actually are, your authentic self. It's so true. Because what I love to say is that we love who we become in relationship with people that we're aligned with. So it is a compatibility with the other person. And then there are the parts of ourselves that we get to be or that get to show up when we're with them.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:30:13 to 00:30:43
And usually it's our authentic self, like the part of us that is not performing, it's the mask off kind of part of us. And that is what people are looking for. And you can't really get that when you're not aligned with the person. You can't really get that when you are dating from a place of convenience or you're dating because you're afraid of rejection. So you're like, I'm not going to go for the people that I actually like because I'm afraid of being vulnerable and risking rejection.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:30:43 to 00:31:11
And so you're going to basically make connections where you stay in your comfort zone. But the comfort zone sometimes is keeping you from real vulnerability or from leaning into the connections that really would bring out the parts that scare you to be exposed or risk rejection with. And see, I like to do this analogy with students when they say they can't do it because they're not comfortable doing it. So I draw a little square in the middle and I draw a little X on the outside. I said, okay, what happens when you go out here?

Archie (Host) | 00:31:11 to 00:31:18
So where's our comfort zone now? Oh, it's a little bit bigger. Yeah. You move the X a little bit more your comfort zone. So it's like you're in control of your own comfort zone.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:31:18 to 00:31:35
Yeah. And so the only way that you can branch out and get comfortable in being uncomfortable is to keep getting out of that comfort zone and trying something new and trying something that you weren't comfortable before. And, you know, it's like starting a new job, going to new school. At first you're uncomfortable, but then you love it. And it's that kind of analogy.

Archie (Host) | 00:31:36 to 00:32:00
And so I like to tell people that kind of thing as well. And what I also noticed, and I'm just going to quickly hijack again, in my previous relationships, and I noticed some people say this as well, that your partner will only love you if you fight and you're angry and all that kind of stuff. And I don't believe in that personally, because in my previous relationships, it was arguing, yellowing, fighting. And in the relationship I'm with now, we have deep conversations. They're not shouting matches.

Archie (Host) | 00:32:00 to 00:32:16
We have discussions. And it is so adult, you know, and it's so. It's so. It's just a wonderful feeling being able to sit with your partner. And when you have an issue or a disagreement, you are having a conversation and you're working through it together.

Archie (Host) | 00:32:16 to 00:32:34
And it's quite sad that I still have friends and who think that love is shouting and fighting for each other in that way, because that shows love. And it's just sad that, you know, some people still think that's what a relationship is and it doesn't have to be. Some people like that. And, you know, all for yourselves. Like, that's not my thing.

Archie (Host) | 00:32:34 to 00:33:07
I don't want to have a shouting match, but I just find it interesting that some people say that, yeah, you're. Getting at something that is big. So I think, I mean, wow, I love this conversation. I'm feeling the survival that is inherent in the shouting match. What I'm hearing, and I know firsthand what you're talking about, what I'm hearing is that some people have internalised the survival pattern of survival patterns around conflict as expressing love and interest and, you know, earnestness for the relationship.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:33:07 to 00:33:40
And what you're offering is a different blueprint on relationship that's about wholeness, that's about patience and having deep conversations and empathy and collaboration. And so what you. From a therapist perspective, what you're talking about is thriving in relationship. And there are a lot of people still in survival mode when it comes to love relationship. And it makes sense because we've all inherited a lot of stuff around love and in a lot of wounds and pain.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:33:40 to 00:34:07
And so it can make sense. Like sometimes it seems like, you know, someone expressing interest in us by being, like, very assertive and direct and conflictual feels like attention, but it isn't always attraction, it's not always attachment in a way that feels healed and whole. So my heart goes out to. To people have a lot of empathy. And what you're saying, I would actually.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:34:08 to 00:34:20
I would definitely support that if we can switch from survival to thriving relationships, have room to focus on. So, like you say, you have deep conversations. I bet there about a lot more than an argument. So look at. Think about what you get to build.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:34:20 to 00:34:38
Think about what you get to dream together when you're not in survival mode. That's what I love about what you're offering people. Yeah, it's. We get to have the deep conversations about why we're reacting to certain things. So if I'm triggered by something that Katie's done or she's triggered by something that I've done, we actually sit down.

Archie (Host) | 00:34:38 to 00:34:58
It's like, hey, actually, this is how this makes me feel because of this and because of my background and growing up. So can we just be a bit more careful and can we reassess the tone or the way we say that? And then. So then we're more aware of how, based on our backgrounds and the way that we've also been brought in, that our, Our behaviours might trigger one another. And I think for us, that really works, but it's not going to work for everyone.

Archie (Host) | 00:34:58 to 00:35:12
Everybody's relationship is uniquely their own, but it definitely is a way that works for us. And I'm really happy. I'm so blessed to be in a relationship that I am in. And it's beautiful. And I also love watching you and your partner on Instagram and stuff.

Archie (Host) | 00:35:12 to 00:35:38
It's very gorgeous. I love your little family as well. It's very beautiful to see that. And so, you know, it is nice to see queer relationships out there that is positive, and it's not the stereotypical stuff on the media of cheating and all this, you know, infidelity and stuff. So it's beautiful to see now, in the day of social media, that we are now able to see beautiful queer families thriving and, you know, not just surviving, but absolutely thriving.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:35:38 to 00:35:52
Yeah. What you're offering is what it can be like to really. To really thrive, to create space for one another in the healing journey. Since a lot of people ask me, do you have to be healed already to. To date?

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:35:53 to 00:36:04
And so you're answering that question, it's like, no, we can. We can heal in relationship. And I actually believe we heal in relationship. That's why I say every therapy session I've ever had, we talked about a relationship. It didn't mean.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:36:04 to 00:36:23
It didn't matter if it was an individual session, because we really heal in community. And so you're. What you're saying is. Is very true that if we're healing in community, then it's time for us to find the tools to be able to. To live with one another in a way where we thrive and we grow in wholeness together.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:36:23 to 00:36:41
And ultimately, relationships are always evolving. None of us. If you've been together a year or onward, you're not dating the same person that you met. They never stay the same. And so even if that is our, like, desire that this moment or in the beginning never changes.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:36:41 to 00:36:50
It does. It evolves. And so we have to evolve with them. And so how do you see the queer dating landscape changing compared to five, ten years ago or. And in the future, do you.

Archie (Host) | 00:36:50 to 00:37:21
How do you see the queer dating changing? Yeah, you know, I really have been thinking about this. You know, like, the first thing that I've. I thought was that language has really expanded. And so even as we talk about label fluidity and label fatigue and people wanting to exist beyond restrictive boxes, I think about that being a profound change, especially for LGBTQ people, that we are finding new ways of identifying, of being able to express ourselves.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:37:22 to 00:37:39
And as language evolves, so does culture. So we know that language is really, really important to our identities as people. And how we just culturally make connection work. And the. The next thing I'm thinking about is this desire that I'm seeing for emotional safety.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:37:39 to 00:38:01
And so as we think about the trajectory of relationships, at some point people were getting together for practical means. So more so like, okay, because we need money and we need shelter, and we. And over time, it has evolved. And so people then are looking for love in more modern times. And it's not just about sharing finances and things like that.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:38:01 to 00:38:40
And as we even get further into the landscape where now we're looking for love, people are saying, okay, love, but I needed to be thriving like you're saying. So emotional safety has become extremely important, I would say, in the past five to 10 years. And I think we'll continue to see emotional safety be important. And so I spend a lot of time talking about, thinking about, dissecting what I call emotional fluency, which is really the ability to speak from the heart. I think people are moving in a direction where emotional language will become a really important language dialect for people to understand.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:38:41 to 00:39:06
You know, when I'm doing therapy with adults, we often will still bring out a feelings chart because most people have, like, a few basic ways of describing their emotions. If you ask someone how they feel, they might say, happy, mad, sad, angry. But you could be confused, you could be perplexed, you could be excited, you could be nervous. There's just like a range of emotion that we, we feel. And when we can't express ourselves, then we can't say, hey, I'm triggered.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:39:07 to 00:39:29
You know, if we only have angry, sad, we don't have a way of saying, hey, I'm triggered. Or we don't have a way of even reading that expression on another one's face. So then we push too far and we hurt someone in the process. And so the more that we can expand our emotional understanding and speak from the heart, I think we're going to. To really grow together and thrive.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:39:29 to 00:39:47
So those are the ways in which I see people evolving. And I do think emotional safety is going to be super important in the years to come. So I think even after this, you're going to just start hearing people talk about emotional safety, and you'll be like. Most said it, I heard it first. It's really everything that you're saying is definitely resonating.

Archie (Host) | 00:39:47 to 00:40:03
The idea of labels, when I had a label that didn't fit me, I couldn't get out the right emotions, couldn't get the language for the right emotions. And so when I'm sitting here and I'm Listening to you. Before transitioning and before going to therapy and before doing all the self work, I didn't have the language. I was always, I'm mad, I'm angry. I had, I had a temper.

Archie (Host) | 00:40:03 to 00:40:27
I was like. Because I didn't know how to get my words across because I didn't know, I didn't have the language to say, actually I'm being triggered by you. Yes. But after doing the work, I've then had the language to be able to communicate better with my, my partner. And it's quite interesting when you do the work saying you don't have to do the work by yourself, you can do it with your partner, but sometimes doing the work gives you the language that you need to better communicate with your partner.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:40:27 to 00:40:44
Yeah, absolutely. Yes. When we understand ourselves better than we can get our needs met by communicating them and we don't feel walked all over. Well, we can't really communicate that and like what's going on inside of us, a lot of us end up feeling harm. So then we push other people away.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:40:45 to 00:41:08
And in order to be able to stay open, we have to do what you're, what you're saying. We have to really do that self exploration, get really good language around, like what's happening for us so that we can tell other people. Yeah. And everything you were saying is I can relate to there as well because I felt like I was on edge. I felt like I was on walking on eggshells as well because I didn't have the, the actual words and so I didn't know what to do.

Archie (Host) | 00:41:08 to 00:41:35
And then I just, you know, I'd break. Yeah. And so I've done the work and I can see some of the stuff I did wasn't great. It's not all on my, you know, I was toxic in those, in the, in my response to that because I didn't have the language and I didn't understand why I was feeling this way. And will you guys ever do a, like, you know how to get out of the labels kind of like checklist or something for the users and for this is some tips to break your type cycle or something like that because I'm learning so much from you.

Archie (Host) | 00:41:35 to 00:41:52
And sometimes a little infograph would help some of the users. So I know like my ADHD brain likes pretty pictures and little things. So I'd be interesting to see if Hinge ended up going down that route and put it on the app and the website and stuff. I just thought that'd be interesting. I will definitely take in the feedback there's some.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:41:52 to 00:42:11
Definitely some. I give some advice in the report around like the type cycle, but I definitely am hearing you on the infographics. And who does not love a pretty picture? I love a pretty picture. To wrap this up, what advice would you give someone who's curious about dating outside their comfort zone?

Archie (Host) | 00:42:11 to 00:42:38
Because you could turn this into an infographic but feels unsure? Yay. Oh, you know, first I just want to affirm you that uncertainty, that, that feeling of being unsure, that is you're not alone. That's very, very common, especially when you're doing something new. So I think about like the first time you ride a bike, so I want whoever's listening to like, picture this, close your eyes.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:42:38 to 00:42:55
Picture like the first time you rode a bike, the sensation you felt, the wind in your hair, the smile on your face. And if you've never learned to ride a bike, then you know you missing out on that experience. But it's like exhilarating. It's like, who? Like, no training wheels.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:42:55 to 00:43:25
Like, we got it. But before that there was a lot of practise. There was a lot of putting yourself out there, not knowing if you were going to fall, not knowing if you were going to like scrape your knee. And many of us did, but we had to get up and we had to keep trying again. So when we're doing anything new for the first time, or we're dating outside of our typical type, or we're getting out of that type cycle, we're dating beyond our comfort zone, then there will be some practise that's inherent in this process.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:43:25 to 00:43:48
So love, I like to say love is a theory you have to put into practise. That means there are some day to day things that you'll want to be doing differently just to go beyond your comfort zone. And if you could do one small thing every day, just like if you just got on that bike and you learn to balance one day, that's a start. Because that's the basis that bike riding is all about. You got to balance.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:43:48 to 00:44:46
And then if the next day you got up and you push the pedals. So in this context, if you did one thing the next day beyond, let's say, updating your profile on hinge the next day, let's say you started to match or send likes to people that were beyond the type that you would typically connect with, that's another start that you can do that makes an incremental change. So when you think about that process of dating beyond your comfort zone, I want you to remember that bike metaphor before the exhilaration of the wind in your hair. So before you match with someone and you all going on a great date and you like making love history and all of that, before you make the magic, there's practise, there's one small step, there's one pedal after the other, there's balancing, there's falling off the bike, getting back on. But you can do it.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:44:46 to 00:45:05
So that's my metaphor. That's what I'm sticking with today. But. But, yeah, like, I just want to encourage anybody listening that if you make those small steps beyond your comfort zone, you're already changing so much. And I think your metaphor earlier was beautiful about the X and you're expanding your.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:45:05 to 00:45:15
Your comfort. Yeah. And I think that's a perfect way to end the episode. Thank you so much for coming on. Thank you for getting in touch Hinge and for wanting to share all the insight about the report.

Archie (Host) | 00:45:15 to 00:45:33
It was so interesting. And I'll link all the stuff to Hinge and link yourself, Mo, if everybody listening wants to find out anything more. Thank you for all your insight and for sharing all your wisdom and knowledge. I've learned a lot. I've loved having a conversation with you and I hope that our listeners have taken something out of this episode as well.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:45:33 to 00:45:45
Yay. Thank you so much for having me. I'm really, really grateful. Thank you. And if you guys like this episode, don't forget to rate, review and subscribe and follow Mo on all their socials and check them out over there as well.

Archie (Host) | 00:45:45 to 00:45:51
I hope you enjoyed this episode, that you got something out of it. Until next time, I hope that we. Have been perfectly queer.

Moe Ari (Guest) | 00:46:00 to 00:46:02
Let's be perfectly queer.