Queer Superheroes in Marvel & DC: The Good, The Bad & The Erased

In this episode of Let's Be Perfectly Queer, we’re suiting up to tackle queer representation in the Marvel and DC universes. From Wiccan and America Chavez to Loki and Mystique, we break down who’s repping the LGBTQ+ community in Marvel and DC—and where these mega-franchises still need to do better.

But first, Katie spills all about recent queer events in Perth, including Fringe, Perth Fest, and Craft in the Park hosted by Pride Shed, a cozy monthly gathering where queer folks craft, connect, and, apparently, darn socks (shoutout to Kevin!).

We also tackle some hard-hitting global LGBTQ+ news—like Hungary’s Pride ban and the impact of politics on identity. Plus, we chat about the Australian PM showing up at Mardi Gras and why political support (or lack thereof) matters for the queer community. 

It's also Western Australian State Elections so we are reminding everyone to get out and vote!

The Main Event: Queer Superheroes & Villains in Marvel & DC

💥 Wiccan, Agatha, Batwoman, America Chavez, Iceman, Loki, Deadpool & More! – Which characters bring authentic LGBTQ+ stories to the big screen, and who’s getting erased?
🔥 Straight-Washing & Tokenism – When studios downplay or erase queer identities in mainstream films.
🎭 Comic vs. Film Representation – Why are some characters queerer in the comics than in the movies?
💡 Why Representation Matters – The impact of positive queer storytelling in superhero media.

We love hearing from you! 💌 Drop us a DM or email us at letsbeperfectlyqueerpod@gmail.com and let us know:

• Who’s your favorite LGBTQ+ superhero?
• What queer characters deserve more screen time?

Oh, and don’t forget to subscribe, rate, and share—every listen helps us keep bringing you the queer content you love!

If you have found anything we have spoken about in this episode difficult or triggering, you can reach out to the following services:

Phone:

• Lifeline is available 24/7 – 13 11 14
• Beyondblue is available 24/7 - 1300 224 636

Online:

• Head to health online chat  - headtohealth.gov.au
• RUAH Community Services - ruah.org.au or connect@ruah.org.au 

Chapters

• 0:39 What we've been up to
• 3:13 Hungary Pride ban
• 4:06 Australian Political Talk
• 14:57 Main Episode Topic

Transcript

Podcast: Let's Be Perfectly Queer Podcast

Episode Title: Queer Representation In The Marvel And DC Universe

Host(s): Archie, Katie

Guest(s): 

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Archie (Host) | 00:00:05 to 00:00:15
Welcome to let's Be Perfectly Queer, a. Queer podcast creating space to talk about all things queer. My name is Archie. And I'm Katie. And we are your hosts.

Katie (Host) | 00:00:16 to 00:00:39
Questions of how you identify, seeking answers to clarify whether you're queen or somewhere in between. Let's be perfectly queer. And we're back again. And so on this episode, we're going to be talking about queer representation in the DC and Marvel universes. And that's what this episode's going to be about.

Katie (Host) | 00:00:39 to 00:00:56
Love. What have we been up to before we get into today's episode? Well, recently we actually had in Perth wa, we've had Fringe, we've had Perth Fest. It's been great. It's been great celebrating a lot of different cultural things, a lot of different artistic things.

Katie (Host) | 00:00:56 to 00:01:17
I've really enjoyed it. It's been the upholding, the happiness that we've needed in life at this present time. What about you? So we went to Perth Festival because the East Perth Power Station has been changed into a little hub for Perth Fest, which is really cool. We also went to the February edition of Craft in the park, run by Pride Shed.

Archie (Host) | 00:01:18 to 00:01:34
What is that? Well, in essence is exactly what the name suggests. It's a whole bunch of queer people getting together and actually just doing crafts in the park. It's run by Chucky, whose background is in youth work, from what I understand. Yeah.

Katie (Host) | 00:01:34 to 00:02:01
There. As well as escape rooms, which is a fun fact about Chucky. They are absolutely brilliant and they've managed to bring together this great initiative that just brings queer folks together to have fun and actually just not network, but just enjoy each other in the space space that it is. They are going to go down the route of trying to get some funding and some fundraising and that kind of stuff. So it's having a space to go without having the physical space of a shed just yet, which is something that they're going to be working into.

Archie (Host) | 00:02:01 to 00:02:23
And everybody there is super lovely and people down there that you see, there's crocheting, there's painting, there's whittling, there's also. Knitting, there's people drawing, people doing absolutely everything. We met this awesome person called Kevin the other day who is darning socks. Yeah. And I was like, damn, that's a lost art that needs to come back.

Archie (Host) | 00:02:23 to 00:02:29
Yeah. So it's a really cool place. So there was that. And the next one will be happening again soon. It's monthly.

Archie (Host) | 00:02:29 to 00:02:38
Yes. Happens once a month in Perth. If you are from Perth, check out Perth Pride Shed on Instagram, where they post most of the Information. Yeah, Follow them, subscribe to them. They're a great cause.

Katie (Host) | 00:02:38 to 00:02:52
You probably meet us down there. We're down there very often, but yeah. So we haven't been up to too much. But before we get into this episode, I just want to shout out to some listeners from some new countries and places. So we have some new locations for listeners.

Archie (Host) | 00:02:52 to 00:03:01
We have Omaha in Nebraska. We have Hackney in Hackney. We have Corvillis in Oregon. And Valencia. Valencia, which is pretty cool.

Katie (Host) | 00:03:01 to 00:03:06
A lot of those are in America. That's good. Yeah. Good luck, guys. But yeah, it's.

Katie (Host) | 00:03:07 to 00:03:13
We love you. Yeah. Just putting a general statement out there. We do love you from all the other way side of the globe. Yeah.

Archie (Host) | 00:03:13 to 00:03:25
And it is sad when I just saw on the news recently as well that Hungary has banned pride parades. Shit. Really? Well, there was on the article or something along the lines of the. It wasn't the.

Archie (Host) | 00:03:25 to 00:03:39
It wasn't their prime minister or president. It was like a representative who is putting forward for pride parades to be banned. Wow. Yeah. It's funny having like a lot of my ancestry being from Hungary, that I'm not speaking for Hungarian people out there.

Katie (Host) | 00:03:39 to 00:04:06
I'm definitely not. I'm not somebody who unfortunately got entrenched in my culture. Which, like, leads you to having a bit of a weird sense of identity at stages. I'm sure you feel the same in some ways, but it's that horrible thing about when your country of ancestry does something really shit and you're like, I don't speak for these people. But also I'm really disappointed because I'm Portuguese as well.

Archie (Host) | 00:04:06 to 00:04:18
And then I saw something about Spain wanting to do something against the lgbt. And they were. Weren't they, like in the top four for the safest places to travel? Absolutely. But again, it's targeting trans people mainly, so it's just a bit of a disappointment.

Archie (Host) | 00:04:18 to 00:04:36
But then if you compare it to what's happening here in Australia. So Mardi Gras has happened last weekend and our prime minister marched in Mardi Gras and he's been marching for 20 or 30 odd years. And so it's just such a dis. What's that word? It's such a disconnect.

Archie (Host) | 00:04:36 to 00:04:51
It's such a disconnect what we're having here. But it all depends on what's going to happen in the next government and who. Who makes government about what will happen here as well. Where we've got this Prime Minister who is marching for LGBT people. Yes.

Archie (Host) | 00:04:51 to 00:04:59
They're. You know, he's not the perfect person. Nobody's perfect. But he is still marching. He's showing his support for diversity and the queer community.

Katie (Host) | 00:05:00 to 00:05:14
And that's what I, I really appreciate for Anthony Albanese is that he's not afraid to show support for individuals or communities. I mean. Yeah. It's not just, he's not just marching for me. Yeah.

Katie (Host) | 00:05:14 to 00:05:33
But it's that beauty. Like, I feel like there's so many people who fence it. Yeah. And in a way that's making them complicit to. It's making them complicit in, in terms of the derogatory and the, the negative connotations.

Katie (Host) | 00:05:33 to 00:06:04
And it's, it's just, it makes me angry because I'm just like, all in all, like, I mean, depending when, when this comes out on. We've just had voting this weekend, but I've never been so angry going into vote that I have done this time. I think in a way that it's looking at other parties out there and if you are wanting to know how to vote, there is a lot of great people to follow who can teach you how to vote, including like Abby Chatfield and some other fabulous individuals. Great. Thank you.

Katie (Host) | 00:06:04 to 00:06:32
Who can teach you how to vote to make your vote count as well as what the values behind the different parties are and to have specific parties be so anti queer, anti trans. I was walking into that place and every time I saw a fucking liberal person trying to hand me a ballot paper, I was like, seething. I'm like, don't fucking talk to. Nobody did talk to me. I must have had the worst look on my face.

Katie (Host) | 00:06:32 to 00:07:03
I know I've got bitch face sometimes. You do when I'm angry or like when I'm thinking about bad shit. But I literally was just like, don't you fucking even come up to me, like, don't, don't you even fucking dare try and put that ballot paper in my hand. Because I tell you what, I'm queer and you're basically saying that I don't exist. I saw something recently on TikTok about the Peter Dutton government wanting to get rid of 26,000 jobs to do with the DEI, so the diversity, equity and inclusion across Australia if he was voted in.

Archie (Host) | 00:07:03 to 00:07:29
But in saying that there's only 2500 positions in Australia for this kind of thing. So it's like, where are you going to find these extra. Yeah, sorry. It's, it's lies and it's. And it's attacking at the dei, which has worked in the US and it's working in the uk and so they're trying to do it here as a bit of a ploy because at the start of the election Peter Dutton was like, no, I'm not going to tackle dei, we're not going to look at it.

Archie (Host) | 00:07:29 to 00:07:52
But then all of a sudden has changed his tune because someone like Gina Rinehart said that it needs to happen here. Yeah. And so wait, all of a sudden someone with a lot of money says it needs to happen here and then he's buckling. But it'll be interesting to see what happens. And some people listening probably will disagree with us and some will agree with us, and that's fine because we're allowed to have a discourse and a conversation.

Archie (Host) | 00:07:52 to 00:08:01
And if you don't agree with us, I'd be really interested to see your take on it. Yeah, you can talk to Archie about it. Oh yeah, Katie will get angry. So don't talk to her about it. Yeah, don't.

Katie (Host) | 00:08:01 to 00:08:41
Because I, I will never be pro. People who think that I will never be able to have a conversation with somebody who doesn't agree that people should be equal and have equal rights. Yeah, I'm never going to be able to have a conversation with somebody who thinks that they are better than other people because of what skin colour they are, what sexuality they are, what gender they are. I will never in my life be able to have an equal conversation with somebody who believes these fucking derogatory small minded conversations. And I tell you what, I've had to endure so much in healthcare because in healthcare you aren't meant to allow your biases to affect the person.

Katie (Host) | 00:08:41 to 00:09:09
And I never have because I will always care for a patient in the same manner I would care for anybody else. And when you are not able to react to those kind of things, you're like, okay, well this person might be unstable, they might not be unstable, that's just how they feel. But in my personal life, in being able to have a voice, I will never accept that as, as a reasonable way of thinking because it's not. You're fucked. In essence, you just fucked.

Archie (Host) | 00:09:09 to 00:09:44
And you know, it is interesting when you do have family members or friends who do vote liberal and I honestly can't see why in this day and age, people our age would, when liberal, don't do anything for us. But you know, at the end of the day, people have their, their biases and people have their obligations to certain parties for some reason or another. When I usually do those kind of things, where you put in your beliefs into one of those electoral things and it shows you who aligns the best with you. Absolutely. You know, and I've been doing that for several years and never ever has it been liberals.

Archie (Host) | 00:09:44 to 00:10:10
Never. It makes me worried. And I, I wouldn't think that we're gonna see now more than ever with what's happened recently in the news with Australia saying that they're not supporting what the claims that America is having, which I'm very happy for because I was quite concerned. But it's. I am instilled with a little bit of hope that we aren't gonna go backwards on the steps that we've made in Australia to make this a safe country for everybody.

Katie (Host) | 00:10:11 to 00:10:59
And I being and working in healthcare, I do appreciate that we've got national health and safety quality standards that say we have to treat people with diversity equally no matter what that diversity is, but also taking into account steps to making sure that they have access to health care and that they have a voice in health as well. So we've got the aboriginal and diversity equity impact statements, which mean that we have these kind of resources for us to be able to give a voice to people who are diverse, who haven't had voices. So it makes me think that maybe we will actually be okay in Australia. And we saw recently what happened when those two nurses in the, in the health system said those really heinous comments. Absolutely.

Archie (Host) | 00:10:59 to 00:11:10
And they were. They were gone. Absolutely. And that's why I hope that our government and our rules and our legislation stations continue to protect everyone and everyone's right to live. But who knows?

Katie (Host) | 00:11:10 to 00:11:27
I. I find it baffling that we're going back into the dark ages and people are boasting this anti Semitic Roderick, that's just so fucking disgusting. And you're like, what's wrong with you? We don't have to agree with everyone. But you don't attack someone you don't agree with.

Katie (Host) | 00:11:27 to 00:11:44
Honestly find it absolutely fucking backwards. Like, even as a teacher, we don't. We are not allowed to bias or talk about politics or anything like that. And I had several kids say how amazing Trump was, and I couldn't tell them how bad Trump was, but I just saying, okay, that is your belief. That is not what I believe.

Archie (Host) | 00:11:44 to 00:12:00
And we're not going to get into this conversation because as an educator, you're not allowed to, which is ridiculous. But anyway, as an educator, you're not allowed to give your personal opinion on politics or anything like that. But I didn't attack them. I didn't get angry at them. I wasn't going to not teach them because they're Trump supporters.

Katie (Host) | 00:12:00 to 00:12:12
Yeah. You kind of, you still give them the same amount of effort and as you did before, like, yes, they're a. Trump supporter, but you have to teach with, without that bias. Yeah. Oh guys, it's gonna be okay.

Katie (Host) | 00:12:13 to 00:12:34
But yeah, I think the, the most important thing and, and I guess this, this is important for anything is just educating yourself and actually doing the steps that you did and going and using the resources that are out there on. The AEC website and there's other websites as well that do it as well. Yeah, I know abc.netau used to do one as well. Yeah. But far out.

Katie (Host) | 00:12:34 to 00:13:07
Be educated. I, I implore people who are queer or allies to our beautiful queer community and you all. But just make sure that you are actually educating yourself on how to vote because sometimes it's not that. I was going to say whimsical, but like, no, it does actually make such a big impact in this day and age we've seen in government that your vote makes more and more of an impact with the diversity that we've got in our different parties. And we don't have a two party system in Australia.

Archie (Host) | 00:13:07 to 00:13:25
We vote like we have a two party preferred system voting, but we have preferential voting. Yeah. So no matter who you vote for, it counts. Yeah, it does. So don't forget that you don't have to vote for the two major parties if that's not who aligns with you.

Archie (Host) | 00:13:25 to 00:13:42
But make sure that you are aware of what each party is saying they want to happen and making sure that you put the preference, preferential voting in a way that best suits you, your family, yourselves, your. Your friends. Yeah. Needs. It's so true.

Katie (Host) | 00:13:42 to 00:14:15
It's funny because if you actually do look into like the different parties, like the legalised cannabis party, it's a lot of. And the sex party, they're all a lot about diversity, celebrating diversity, sustainability, equal opportunities. I feel like it's that, that old thing of like be careful what you name yourself because then people get like a certain approach to what they think you're about with actually knowing. So today, if you're listening to it, on Friday 7th March is the last day for early voting. Yep.

Archie (Host) | 00:14:16 to 00:14:32
So find a polling place if you don't want to wait in the massive lines. But I'm assuming today is probably going to be absolutely heckers. And then Saturday, 8 March is the polling day. So make sure that you've done enough research. If you're not sure and you can't vote today, do enough research and vote tomorrow.

Archie (Host) | 00:14:32 to 00:14:36
It's fine. Make your vote count. Exactly. It's Archie's birthday on the 9th. It is.

Archie (Host) | 00:14:37 to 00:14:50
So you better vote well as a. Birthday present to Archie. Otherwise I'll have the saddest birthday 

Katie (Host) | 00:14:50 to 00:14:57
Yeah, we'll find out is. Well, gross isn't it? It better be a good result. Anyway, shall we get into the episode? Yeah.

Archie (Host) | 00:14:57 to 00:15:18
All right. Let's get into today's episode. And today we're talking about superheroes, villains, and queer representation, specifically in the Marvel and the DC universe. The reason I chose this topic was because we were absolutely obsessed with a new release Marvel series last year. What was it?

Katie (Host) | 00:15:18 to 00:15:29
Agatha. All along. Agatha. All along, I thought it was a really great series. And I feel that this show has been one of the Marvel series that has done queer representation.

Archie (Host) | 00:15:29 to 00:15:55
Right. And I think from my perspective, yes, it's really important at this stage in time because Marvel is such a big thing. People are watching comic. I mean, I would say this element of comic book cinema, more than ever, it's bringing people in that aren't just your normies to this kind of category of. Do you mean your comic book nerds?

Katie (Host) | 00:15:55 to 00:16:05
Yes, yes. I was like, normies. I was like, how do I put this politely, seeing as I don't find nerds an offensive term. Like, I'm like, yeah, totes am a nerd. Ish.

Archie (Host) | 00:16:05 to 00:16:18
Same. And so I was just like, generally, it's not something I would have watched before we were together, I would say. But then again, I used to love, like, X Men and Wolverine, and now that's Marvel. So, like, it's always been Marvel. Yeah.

Katie (Host) | 00:16:18 to 00:16:26
Cool. Cool, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool. Don't me, guys. But now I feel like it's. It's going more into mainstream.

Katie (Host) | 00:16:26 to 00:16:42
And with it going more into mainstream, the fact that it's bringing themes of acceptance in is more important than any other time. Yeah. So Marvel, especially with a cinematic universe, it's taken over. It's everywhere. And some people say it's too much.

Archie (Host) | 00:16:42 to 00:17:07
And I would tend to agree in some aspects because then they try to rush too much and they don't put in enough effort and make the series or the movies as good as they could be. Are they going faster than they ever have before? Well, because when I was into the Marvel universe, in the cinematic universe, it was like maybe one or two movies a year or whatever it was. Now it's movies, series, television. You've got your animation series as well.

Archie (Host) | 00:17:07 to 00:17:31
So you've Got all the different things. So, yes, they are moving quite fast, but in essence, if you're looking at the comic book universe, they're actually moving quite slow. Okay. Because, you know, comics get released monthly or weekly, depending on what kind of comic it is. So I guess the information being put out there is faster than what Marvel can keep up with because of the demand for a TV show or the demand for a movie is so much like.

Katie (Host) | 00:17:31 to 00:17:40
There's so much more technological work that goes into it than creating a comic. Yet there's so much more like. Yes, you've got. Because a group of comic writers, you might have 10, 15 who write a comic. Yeah.

Archie (Host) | 00:17:40 to 00:17:54
And you've got those people. Oh, really? It's not just one person who writes a comic. I know, I figured that, but I didn't realise it was like 10, 15. Depending on which, you know, it could be five, could be 10, could be 15, depending on what comic book issue or if it's a comic, if it's a graphic novel, etc.

Katie (Host) | 00:17:54 to 00:18:15
Okay. And so, you know, they are small teams, but you don't have to think about sound. You don't have to think about moving pictures and images and getting actors because they're just drawing. So all of those aspects, it's a lot faster to get out a comic book than it would be to get out a series. With a series or a movie, you've got hundreds if not thousands of people involved.

Katie (Host) | 00:18:15 to 00:18:24
I guess what I didn't realise is that they were still writing Marvel. Like. Okay. I didn't realise they were still writing Marvel comics. Yes, of course.

Archie (Host) | 00:18:24 to 00:18:32
Every. They come out all the time. That's crazy. It sounds stupid. I know it sounds stupid, but, like, I know that.

Katie (Host) | 00:18:32 to 00:18:57
Okay, I'm prefacing this is that this is not where I nerve. Nerd out. Like, I don't nerd out in this area of life. It's crazy because, like, when I think of the Marvel films, I'm like, oh, yeah, it must have been adapted from comics or like screenplays or whatever it is adapted from. But I didn't realise that there's still people out there reading new comics and those new comics are eventually going to turn into, like, new comics.

Katie (Host) | 00:18:57 to 00:19:03
Like, I know you read comics, but. I was just like, yeah, I read comics. Yeah, yeah, well, I know that. Geez. Yeah.

Archie (Host) | 00:19:03 to 00:19:31
So. But the reason why I really wanted to cover this topic because I wanted to see how queer representation has been played previously in the Marvel and the DC universe, because they're the ones that, you know, most people know there are the other universes like dark horse, etc. But when I say DC and Marvel, most people, without even having read a comic, will know what DC and Marvel is. And obviously the way that they portrayed Wiccan in Agatha all along was comic book accurate in the fact that he is queer. And I was wondering if they were going to go down that route.

Archie (Host) | 00:19:31 to 00:19:50
And I'm really glad that they did because they have had some failings in the past. But so on this episode, we're diving into queer superheroes and villains, from comics to movies. Queer representation has come a long way, but there's still so much further that they can go. And there is a lot to unpack when we're going to discuss this today. I can't wait to hear about it because I'm really intrigued.

Katie (Host) | 00:19:50 to 00:20:18
Also, about, like, I was. I was surprised when you just said that Wickham was depicted queer in the comic books. I would have thought this is silly, but, like, I didn't realise that it would be that apt between the comic books to the movies or something that could have just been developed for the movies to engage people in. Usually not. The thing is, I think with something such as Marvel or dc, if you were to change a straight or heterosexual character into being gay, I think everybody would have an uproar.

Katie (Host) | 00:20:18 to 00:20:46
Yeah. But when it's the other way around, nobody cares. Comics have always been a safe space where creators can explore different identities and experiences. And they usually do this through, you know, characters fighting at evil or epic battles and with superpowers and, you know, all those kind of stuff to make it interesting for everyone. But lately, and I'm really glad about it, we've been seeing more LGBTQIA superheroes and villains in the spotlight, not just the sidekick, hero or those kind of things.

Archie (Host) | 00:20:46 to 00:21:04
And I think that is really cool. Do you know what? This really. I'm just on a tangent. This reminds me of that episode of Sex Education where it's that quirky girl and she's writing a comic book that's got like a giant tentacle or monster that she has sex with and it's like her exploring her sexuality.

Archie (Host) | 00:21:04 to 00:21:16
Yeah. And that could be what some of the writers have done in the past. I don't know a lot about the writers. It could be. I think there are some queer writers and when we spoke to Bijan, we spoke about that, but I'm not sure to the amount of queer writers there are.

Archie (Host) | 00:21:16 to 00:21:37
So on this episode, we're about to take a superpower journey through queer representation in the comic book world. Superhero and representation has been good, but it also has been a letdown. We've had moments of queerbaiting and straight washing, and the first person that comes to mind when I think of a real massive letdown in the MCU is. Can you guess who I'm going to say? Nat Loki.

Katie (Host) | 00:21:37 to 00:21:57
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So Loki in the comic book universe is meant to be bi and gender fluid, but we barely see the side of him on screen. Yeah, Actually, that's really fair, because when, I mean, female Loki came out because we all expected. Sorry, what's their name again? Female Loki.

Archie (Host) | 00:21:57 to 00:22:13
I can't remember. I thought that was a bit disappointing because I was just like, oh, there's all these different versions of Loki. Yes. Can we not have Loki fall in love with himself as another he? But also, Loki can go into anything as a shapeshifter can be.

Archie (Host) | 00:22:13 to 00:22:21
There's parts where he's been like Minotaur, you know, that kind of stuff, like Norse mythology. He was a horse and he ended up having babies. Yeah, that's right. He's a horse. Yeah.

Archie (Host) | 00:22:21 to 00:22:29
Yeah. For those who are listening and you don't know what straight washing is, do you know what straight washing is? Yeah. Do you want me to explain it or do you want to try to explain it? No, you can explain it.

Katie (Host) | 00:22:29 to 00:23:00
Thanks. So just in case you were listening and you heard me say straight washing, it's when media like movies, TV shows, radio, books change or hide the queer identity of a character or real person. So it's not just for characters and it makes them straight or cisgender. This often happens to make the characters more mainstream and acceptable for a wider audience, and mainly more wider and conservative audience. But you'll see it when queer characters are portrayed as straight or when their LGBTQ identity is downplayed or ignored.

Archie (Host) | 00:23:00 to 00:23:22
For example, like in Loki, they just don't mention at all. And it can also happen in biographical stories about celebrities or people of influence, where parts of a public figure's queer identity are erased or minimised or just not spoken about. So that's what straight washing is. Which is so funny because, like, then they make it taboo. Yeah, it's such a funny thing, because people are like, oh, goodness, we won't talk about that.

Katie (Host) | 00:23:22 to 00:23:38
That's not something to talk about. Or a lot of people will say that whole line of being like, oh, it doesn't matter if they're queer or not. And I'm like, but by you saying it doesn't matter if they're queer or not, why does it matter? That they're straight. Like, why does that matter that they need to be represented as straight?

Katie (Host) | 00:23:38 to 00:23:57
If it doesn't matter that they're represented as queer, why don't you just leave them as be? That's exactly it. Some people just don't realise that they do have some internalised homophobia and saying things like that, like, hey, have you looked at yourself? There's a bit of internalised homophobia in what you just said. And also, I've spoken a lot about the Marvel Universe because I'm not a massive DC fan.

Archie (Host) | 00:23:57 to 00:24:11
Sorry. I do love Batman, probably Batman, Joker, Harlequin, but I'm not into the massive world of DC. But they did release a Pride Month 80 page pride anthology as part of it. That was really cool. I tried to.

Archie (Host) | 00:24:11 to 00:24:21
I did try to get a copy of it, but I was like, I think it was like 180 bucks. And I was like, I don't like DC that much to spend 180 on a comic anthology. But I thought that's really, really cool. And. But yeah.

Archie (Host) | 00:24:21 to 00:24:39
Let's look at a brief history of queer representation in comics. Okay. Queer representation in comics has had a big bit of a rocky past. Back in the day, LGBTQ characters were either sidelined or coded in ways that made their identities unclear or portrayed negatively, like they're the villain if they appeared at all. And that's.

Archie (Host) | 00:24:39 to 00:24:59
That's kind of very reflective if you look in all kinds of media. Back in the day in the 1950s, the comic code Authority came along and banned anything related to sex perversion. And we've heard this term before, if you're listening. And the first time we've spoken about this in some previous episodes, which of course was often used as a way to target queer people. Yeah.

Archie (Host) | 00:24:59 to 00:25:17
But even during those restrictive times, some creators managed to sneak in some LGBTQ themes, sometimes hidden between the lines. For example, Batman and Robin's relationship. And that has been debated for years and years and years. Were they actually a couple or not? With some seeing it as a queer coded partnership.

Archie (Host) | 00:25:17 to 00:25:28
Characters like Wonder Woman were also filled with feminist and queer subtext, even though it was only very slightly. So what do you think? Do you think someone like Batman and Robin, do you think they were in a relationship? What's your. What's your thoughts?

Katie (Host) | 00:25:28 to 00:25:53
See, it's funny because Batman and Robin have been portrayed so differently throughout history. Correct. I don't necessarily want them to be a queer relationship just because I see that there's a huge change in the power dynamic between Batman and Robin as well as Batman is Always perceived to be older than Robin is. It's like, here's my older daddy and here's my younger twink. That's the problem.

Archie (Host) | 00:25:53 to 00:26:04
But would that not be reflective of the times? And, you know, because back in the day, there was a bigger age gap between gay men. Yeah. And so is that something. Is it a reflection of the time?

Archie (Host) | 00:26:04 to 00:26:18
Because, you know, this is the 19. After the 1950s. I'm not sure exactly when Batman came around, but if you're looking a lot of the history, you do see a lot of older men with younger men. And I'm not sure why, but we've spoken about that. We have seen.

Archie (Host) | 00:26:19 to 00:26:37
That was quite common. It probably would be representative of. I don't know. It's funny because I'm putting my brain right now and how I perceive relationships, and I really don't like relationships where there's a huge power imbalance. But I can definitely see how that is reflective of potentially a queer couple.

Katie (Host) | 00:26:37 to 00:26:48
Like, I definitely. I get that. I totally get that. And yeah, with Wonder Woman, 100%, it was just the whole. It was the feminist agenda.

Katie (Host) | 00:26:48 to 00:27:05
That's what it was. Because feminist agenda is what you see these days is it's highly linked to queer culture. It's like bringing. For the power in women and being like, we are one within ourselves. We have power within ourselves.

Katie (Host) | 00:27:05 to 00:27:24
We don't need anyone else to be able to support us. We can support ourselves. And it's. I think that looking back when Wonder Woman actually started, which was like, what, 1940s, 50s or whatever it was, it was definitely back in a time. I'm just thinking, because I think originally it was in, like, black and white, wasn't it?

Archie (Host) | 00:27:25 to 00:27:30
A lot of comics started in black and white. Yeah. Oh, no. I was thinking on the TV with Wonder Woman. Oh, I have no idea.

Katie (Host) | 00:27:30 to 00:27:39
Oh, did you not, like. Like I said, I wasn't a massive DC fan. Oh, yeah, Fair. I remember seeing clips, but I remember this. Clips that I did see ages ago were in colour.

Katie (Host) | 00:27:39 to 00:27:53
See, I feel like there was something with Wonder Woman where she's like, everything was black and white and then she was turning and turning and everything was in colour. But I'm not sure if that's just in my brain and that wasn't actually real. Please tell me, somebody, Somebody tell us. That was if that didn't happen. Yeah, exactly.

Katie (Host) | 00:27:53 to 00:28:13
But, like, it's such a feminist agenda for back in those times and that's kind of linked to queerisms. So I kind of get it. But I think if anything, if Wonder Woman was going to be queer, she would definitely be bi or pan. Why do you say that? Because I don't think that the way that Wonder Woman is portrayed is.

Katie (Host) | 00:28:13 to 00:28:20
I can still. It's so silly. I can still see her being with a man. And everybody has their own opinion on different characters. And someone may say, hell, no.

Archie (Host) | 00:28:20 to 00:28:42
Who knows? It's very true. And then it wasn't until the late 80s and 90s that we started seeing openly queer characters in comics. Thanks to indie publishers and eventually the big names like Marvel and dc, characters like North Star from X Men and Midnighter from the Authority were among the first openly gay superheroes. And they really broke ground for more diverse representation in mainstream comics.

Katie (Host) | 00:28:42 to 00:28:49
Really? Who's Northstar? No idea. I did look up some people, but again, I wasn't massive in the X Men universe. Yeah, fair.

Archie (Host) | 00:28:49 to 00:29:02
Let's look at some notable queer superheroes. Okay. If you were to think of any queer superheroes, can you give me three that you know of in either the Marvel or the DC universe? Nah. No, I don't reckon I can.

Archie (Host) | 00:29:02 to 00:29:14
Well, there's one. There's a movie that came out last year that was massive with a queer. Well, he's kind of an antihero. I'll talk about him later. But if you think of any superheroes that could be queer in the Marvel or DC universe.

Katie (Host) | 00:29:15 to 00:29:28
Oh, gosh, I feel like this is pretty hard. So what came out last year? I'm thinking more TV shows rather than anything else. Because I'm like, if we're looking at Dr. Strange, is there anyone queer in Dr.

Katie (Host) | 00:29:28 to 00:29:31
Strange? Yes. Oh. Oh, is there? Yes.

Katie (Host) | 00:29:32 to 00:29:38
All right. I spoke about this recently. Yeah. Well, we know my memory is not the best. This is what it is.

Katie (Host) | 00:29:38 to 00:29:53
See, Agatha all along is very easy because we've seen it recently. We've got Wiccan, we've got Agatha. We do have spoiler death and their relationship, which would be interesting to see how that's represented in the comics. I don't know. I feel like Dr.

Katie (Host) | 00:29:53 to 00:30:07
Strange, you've got America Ferreira's. No, America Chavez parents. But they are not really superheroes and highlighted in it. It was just more of a nod, which was really lovely. You've mentioned a couple of names.

Archie (Host) | 00:30:07 to 00:30:28
So firstly, Yukio and Negasonic Teenage warhead in Deadpool 2 from the movie. Yeah. So in Deadpool 2, Negasonic Teenage Warhead, played by Brianna Hildebrand and Yukio, which is played by Shioli Kutsuna. I'm sorry, I reckon I wrecked that. Are revealed as a couple making them the first LGBTQ pair in a mainstream superhero film.

Katie (Host) | 00:30:29 to 00:31:00
Right. So Negasonic, with a telepathic and precognitive powers, and Nukio, who has electrical abilities, are both beloved characters in the X Men universe. Brianna Hildenbrand, who is openly queer, was thrilled when Ryan Reynolds, actually. So if you don't know, was the film's producer and star, of course, played Deadpool, approached her to portray this queer relationship, marking a milestone in LGBTQ representation in superhero media. I would have thought there was more queer representation when X Men was first coming out.

Katie (Host) | 00:31:00 to 00:31:18
I would have loved to have seen that, and I wonder if there was, because I always assumed so. Elliot Page, when they were in X Men, they played. I can't remember what that character's name is, but their character, in essence, could run through walls and all that kind of stuff. They've got Elliot Pages in there. Yeah.

Katie (Host) | 00:31:18 to 00:31:39
Really cool. I may have seen snippets of it recently. I always thought their character was queer until their character kind of had a bit of a dalliance with Rogue's boyfriend, who was like, Iceman. And I was like, oh. Because there was meant to be that whole feuding thing about, like, Rogue being like, oh, yeah, but you're running over to this person.

Katie (Host) | 00:31:39 to 00:31:52
And I was just like. I always had just assumed that Elliot Page's character was queer and then was really, really disappointed when they weren't, because I was just like, nah, that person's queer. Like, 100%. You can see queer. Come on now.

Katie (Host) | 00:31:52 to 00:32:11
But I still reckon there was probably as well as. I think that there was some inklings. And maybe this was just my impression of things, but I had always kind of thought that maybe Storm was bisexual. So I'm really disappointed that, like, Yukio and Mutant Ninja Turtle. Megasonic Teenage Warhead.

Katie (Host) | 00:32:11 to 00:32:17
Thank you. I feel like it's got the same. Vibe because it has teenage in it. That's what it is. Anyway, I'm not going to say their name again, because I've already forgotten it.

Katie (Host) | 00:32:18 to 00:32:29
The thing is, I'm surprised that they're the first ones that openly actually have a relationship. I mean, it would be stupid, this. I mean, if you look at Negasonic Teenage Warhead. Did I get the name right? Yep.

Katie (Host) | 00:32:29 to 00:32:37
Awesome. I feel like you look at them and you just, like. They scream queer. So I'm glad that they went in that direction. And Ryan Reynolds, smart man.

Archie (Host) | 00:32:37 to 00:32:44
Like, well, he plays a bisexual antihero, which I'll talk about later. Oh, yeah. Deadpool. How could I not remember Deadpool? That's why I Said that was a massive game.

Katie (Host) | 00:32:44 to 00:32:51
Sexualizes everybody. It's fucking delightful. That's the massive thing that came out last year. So another one. I haven't seen it, but Kate Kane.

Katie (Host) | 00:32:51 to 00:33:09
AKA Batwoman, is Batwoman even in any movies. So Batwoman was introduced in 2019 as part of the CW's Arrowverse. What CW? I have no idea what is CW in DC. So CW is known for being the home of the DC TV show.

Archie (Host) | 00:33:10 to 00:33:36
Anyway. Kate Kane, AKA Batwoman, stars Ruby Rose as Kate Kane, Bruce Wayne's cousin. Returning to Gotham without Batman, Kate decides to take up the mantle of Batwoman as an openly lesbian character. Batwoman brings important LGBTQ representation to the superhero genre, exploring Kate's journey of heroism and self discovery while navigating her identity and family dynamics. Do you know what's really disappointing?

Archie (Host) | 00:33:36 to 00:34:01
That it's Ruby Rose. Yes. I feel like the problem is, is that in the same way that the character Shane in the L Word is the stereotypical lesbian, I feel like Ruby Rose has become the stereotypical lesbian for movies is they're like, oh, we want a lesbian, let's get Ruby Rose in. And I'm like, no, because Ruby Rose doesn't have the diversity to act. She doesn't.

Archie (Host) | 00:34:01 to 00:34:25
Yeah. Or they don't. I can't remember what their pronouns are right now, but I feel like they are an actor who plays their own personality or plays a very box set of characteristics. Yeah. And by dumping them into another character that actually sounds like they're quite convoluted and diverse is just doing a disservice to the character.

Archie (Host) | 00:34:25 to 00:34:43
I've never heard of the series, so I'm not sure if it went well or not because it was filmed in 2019 just before COVID so I'm not sure really what happened. That woman, that reward. Yeah, it's called Kate Kane, AKA Batwoman. I was just looking at Reddit and it's like, what's your opinion on Kate Kane from CW's Batwoman? Oh, my gosh.

Katie (Host) | 00:34:43 to 00:35:06
I feel like they cast Ruby Rose as Kate Kane just because they don't see Kate as anything other than a token lesbian. So they wanted a famous gay actress. Exactly what you said. And I think, you know, because the DC universe has not been as popular as the Marvel universe, so maybe they were trying to use someone who was tokenistic image of a lesbian character. And it hasn't worked for them.

Katie (Host) | 00:35:06 to 00:35:22
Yeah, completely. Yeah. I haven't seen it because I have been a little sceptical, but I'm definitely curious. A big fan of Batwoman. But this take makes me so mad that she got a chance on screen and they did her character wrong.

Katie (Host) | 00:35:22 to 00:35:32
Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. Maybe that's why we haven't heard of it. Yeah. Another character you have mentioned but you didn't realise were queer America Chavez, aka Ms.

Archie (Host) | 00:35:32 to 00:35:36
America. America Chavez is from America. Miss America. Yeah, Ms. Chavez.

Katie (Host) | 00:35:36 to 00:36:11
Oh. So again, I didn't know much about this character before Doctor Strange, but so a member of the West Coast Avengers, a force and more America Chavez is also Marvel's first Latinx Latinx Latinx Latinx LGBTQ character to star in an ongoing series. Raised by her mothers in the utopian parallel, a reality that exists outside of time, America possesses super strength, the ability to fly, and the uncanny talent of being able to kick open holes in reality, making multiverse travel super simple for her. I didn't realise she could fly. Neither did I.

Archie (Host) | 00:36:11 to 00:36:32
With her appearance in the MCU's Doctor Strange, in the multiverse of madness, she's getting even more visibility. So I think they alluded to her LGBTQ identity with the mums, so that is must be comic book accurate. It's a shame that they didn't really build on it. But of course, something as big as Dr. Strange, if you were to add a queer character, some people might get all in a huff, which is disappointing.

Archie (Host) | 00:36:32 to 00:36:44
But I'm really glad that they did have that representation in the mums, though. But maybe they're building it up as. That's what her. I was going to say utopia. Yeah, I was just like, queer utopia.

Katie (Host) | 00:36:44 to 00:37:09
Yeah, that would be my utopia. But, like, maybe that was what the universe that she lives in is. Like, maybe everyone is queer and that's just the stem standard, in the same way that people see the standard in our Earth is heterosexual. So, like, maybe that's just how they've built it up, is that she's got queer mums and therefore she'll already be queer. Because that's just the standard.

Archie (Host) | 00:37:09 to 00:37:14
Yeah, maybe. I'm not sure. We'll see. Another character is Iceman. You mentioned Iceman before.

Katie (Host) | 00:37:14 to 00:37:39
Oh. But Iceman and Rogue, they're in a relationship. A founding member of the X Men, he came out as gay in 2015, so it must be in the comics. That is so disappointing for Rogue. She's had a lot of heartbreak in her life and then, like, because you know how, like, she touches somebody and then she absorbs their power and then sucks out all their powers as well as their life, and then, like, now she turns her partner queer.

Katie (Host) | 00:37:39 to 00:37:59
Not that that's how it Works, but, like, that's how I'm sure she'll see it. I'm sure that the. The cinematic universe is different to the comic book universe when it comes to. She can't take another hit, guys. So his journey of self discovery and acceptance is something that really resonates with a lot of people in the LGBTQIA community and a lot of members who are queer comic book nerds.

Archie (Host) | 00:37:59 to 00:38:17
Absolutely loved the fact that he came out. Yeah. That's gorgeous. You know how sometimes they are very different, though, with what you've got represented in a comic book to what you've got represented in the movies is more dependent on what the world wants to see in the movies. So, like, I find.

Katie (Host) | 00:38:17 to 00:38:40
Because there are a lot more characters who are of diverse cultural backgrounds in comics. Yes. As well as just different skin colours in general. And so I feel like that diversity, I mean, didn't translate as much into X Men when X Men actually started to come into fruition. When we first saw, like Wolverine's story is, you only had Halle Berry.

Katie (Host) | 00:38:40 to 00:38:54
And I don't think there was that much other diversity apart from Halle. I think so. Not that I remember. Yeah. And so it was quite interesting because I do remember seeing that there was a lot more, like, cultural diversity in comics when I did see comics so much.

Katie (Host) | 00:38:54 to 00:39:00
Yeah. Yeah. And so in the heroes bit, I'm gonna also include two anti heroes. Cause, you know. Yeah.

Katie (Host) | 00:39:00 to 00:39:08
I mean, well, they're all characters. We've got to explore the characters. So Wade Wilson. Yeah. AKA Blade in Blade.

Archie (Host) | 00:39:09 to 00:39:17
Wade Wilson. No, I was just like. Are you talking about the Wade Wilson who's in Blade or the Wade Wilson that's Deadpool. Deadpool. Because in essence, they're the same person.

Katie (Host) | 00:39:17 to 00:39:33
But seeing as Blade is now in Marvel, you could be talking about Wade Wilson, who is back in Blade, who is also probably a little bit like Panny. I'm just talking about Wade Wilson, who is Deadpool. I love Blade. Yeah, I know you do. And you were very excited to see there was a new one coming.

Katie (Host) | 00:39:33 to 00:39:49
I squealed. You did spoilers during Deadpool vs. Wolverine. She was very excited to see Blade. So Deadpool is now in the MCU universe because before it was kind of separated and the characters already made waves in the comics with their very open pansexuality.

Katie (Host) | 00:39:49 to 00:40:09
Yeah. Deadpool is portrayed as attracted to a wide variety of people, regardless of gender, with Marvel writer Jerry Dugan describing him as ready and willing to do anything with a pulse. So while the comics make Deadpool's pansexuality Clear. The films only hint at it in a humorous, offhand manner, never fully exploring it. Especially in Deadpool 2.

Archie (Host) | 00:40:09 to 00:40:45
They kind of really just. Was it Deadpool 1 or 2, which is the one with the Colossus 2. But it's only ever in, like, a humorous way. With the recent merger of 20th Century Fox and Disney, there's hope that the future MCU films will more seriously acknowledge Deadpool's queerness and give the character a more nuanced representation, which a lot of readers and fans really are hoping for, because that is a part of Deadpool's personality, his pansexuality. Though, if you notice in Wolverine and Deadpool, he does play it up a little bit more, which is nice, but still, it's in a very humorous way.

Katie (Host) | 00:40:45 to 00:41:04
Yeah. Do you know what? I actually enjoy that. And I'm going to disagree with what they say because I think that's hypersexualizing people who are pansexual because, like, Deadpool is very humorous about, like, oh, yeah, like, I find them hot and I find them hot and, like, we can all just have sex together. Which is like.

Katie (Host) | 00:41:04 to 00:41:24
I feel like that colloquialism is probably what's very natural when you're, like, chatting with friends. Yeah. By him being like, oh, yeah, he'll fuck everything with a pulse. I'm like, you can separate somebody who fucks everything with a polls, which is what I would associate with. Probably somebody's got a sex addiction.

Archie (Host) | 00:41:24 to 00:41:39
Yeah. Which I don't see Deadpool having because he's not trying to fuck everybody. No. He's just making funny comments about everybody and sees everyone on the same level. To somebody who is pansexual and potentially could find attraction in multiple different beings.

Archie (Host) | 00:41:39 to 00:41:50
Yeah. So I find the fact that somebody said he could fuck everything with a pulse just like. I don't know. It just like. I think because you are pansexual, I think you're.

Archie (Host) | 00:41:50 to 00:41:59
You're. It's hitting a nerve a bit more because you've changed what they've said and you've made it worse. Okay. Because it's ready and willing to do anything with a pulse. And you've kind of implied that.

Archie (Host) | 00:41:59 to 00:42:15
So I think the writer is probably doing it in a way that makes it simplified for a wider audience to understand who Deadpool is not. From a queer lens. From a queer lens, that might be, like, aggressive and. Yeah, yeah. From a wider lens, it might just be, like.

Archie (Host) | 00:42:15 to 00:42:22
Just trying to explain, like, it doesn't matter. Does that make sense? Yeah. I do get it. And I do think you're right.

Katie (Host) | 00:42:22 to 00:42:36
I have gone on a bit of a tangent, but like, it's. This is. It annoys me a bit when the queer community are hypersexualized in that way. But, yeah, no, I do like them as a character. I like Deadpool as a character.

Katie (Host) | 00:42:36 to 00:42:57
And I do like the fact that they're just very openly and like, humorously making fun of themselves in a way that, like. Yeah, I find many things attractive, I think. And also with. With the X Men universe, I think they've done. I wonder if there were more queer writers on the X Men universe, since there seems to be more characters in the X Men universe.

Archie (Host) | 00:42:57 to 00:43:14
Or is it. Is it a commentary of the times because, you know, X Men's are mutants and were they trying to say that being queer was a mutate mutation? I'm just intrigued because, you know what I mean? Because the next anti hero is also from the X Men. So that's what, four, like most of these from the X Men.

Katie (Host) | 00:43:15 to 00:43:32
Yeah. So that's interesting. Like, there were others, but I didn't know who they were. And they were like different characters, but most of them ones that I found that most people would know were X Men. So I wonder if that's the creators being queer writers or if it's a commentary of people believing that queer is a mutation.

Katie (Host) | 00:43:32 to 00:44:06
Yeah, I mean, that's a very fair statement and I think it's very interesting. It's also, you know, if I could guess of characters who could have been queer, I reckon Vision could have been queer. Why do you say that? Because Vision's brain was derived from AI True. And I feel like in AI the to pick a partner that's suitable, you would pick somebody who's got, like, the same characteristics of you and the same kind of things that would work with you, that would complement your character and build you up.

Katie (Host) | 00:44:07 to 00:44:20
And I don't think they would see either gender or sexuality as something that would be a barrier. Yeah, I could see that. If you were to say one more X Men character that would be queer, who would you say? Do you know what I would have said? Dr.

Katie (Host) | 00:44:20 to 00:44:33
Xavier. Apart from the fact of now we've got the background of Dr. Xavier, I would have thought they were going to be asexual, but they turned out not to be. And I don't like the younger movies of Dr. Xavier and his obsession with women.

Katie (Host) | 00:44:33 to 00:44:41
But anyway, that's just me. And we know Magneto has a family. Who else? I don't know. There's so many X Men out there.

Katie (Host) | 00:44:41 to 00:44:54
That it's quite hard when you look at the comics. There are so many X Men out there. I'd say probably Kurt Nightstalker. Think, what kind of power does Loki have? That's a good question.

Archie (Host) | 00:44:54 to 00:45:00
So what can Loki do? He can shapeshift. What? X Men can also shapeshift. Oh.

Katie (Host) | 00:45:00 to 00:45:10
Oh, yeah, okay, Right. I've forgotten their name starts with an M. I was like, mysterious. It's not gonna help me. It's close to mysterious.

Katie (Host) | 00:45:10 to 00:45:16
It's not gonna. I'm not gonna get it. Okay. Raven Darkholm, AKA Mystique. Thank you, Mystique.

Archie (Host) | 00:45:16 to 00:45:37
So as a shapeshifter, Mystique's fluid identity goes beyond just gender. She's had relationships with both men and women in the comics, which makes her one of Marvel's most iconic queer antiheroes. Known for being an antihero and occasional villain. Her backstory in X Men First Class reveals her childhood with Professor X, which you've mentioned. You know a bit about the childhood stuff in the comics.

Archie (Host) | 00:45:37 to 00:46:17
Mystique's deeper history includes a significant relationship with Irene Adler or Destiny, a mutant who can see the future. Yeah. Though creator Chris Claremont wanted to portray their love story, the comic code at the time prohibited same sex relationships. As the character continues to evolve, it remains to be seen if the queer aspects of Mystique's story will be explored in future films or comics. Do you know what's so interesting is that as Mystique can shapeshift, if she was having a relationship with Irene Adler, Destiny, but she was shifted into a man's perceived body.

Archie (Host) | 00:46:17 to 00:46:28
Yeah. I wonder if they would have been accepting or they would have viewed that as trans, because technically. So I think that. Because the first thing when you were saying that in my mind was like, oh, yeah, trans. Yeah.

Katie (Host) | 00:46:29 to 00:46:39
But back in. When they would have been writing this. Yes. Would have been a time that they wouldn't have seen that as being trans. Because that's back in the time.

Archie (Host) | 00:46:39 to 00:46:54
And they change body. Yeah, exactly. It would have just been them changing body. Whereas what trans looked like back then are people who were perceived as. This is gonna be quick trigger warning for like, five seconds.

Katie (Host) | 00:46:54 to 00:47:07
People who are perceived as transsexuals or people who are men who are wearing women's clothing. Which is not what trans is. No. So I wonder what. Like, it's so interesting if that's something they could have.

Archie (Host) | 00:47:07 to 00:47:15
Yeah. Like, explored or like, what that would have looked like. Yeah, that'd be very interesting. I'm not sure. With superheroes and the fantasy stuff, when they change Gender.

Archie (Host) | 00:47:15 to 00:47:27
I don't think people really think about the queer lens in that regard. They're just like, oh, the characters changing gender. Yeah. Which doesn't change who they are, it just changes their outsides. Because you could also argue that then Doctor who.

Katie (Host) | 00:47:27 to 00:47:35
Yeah. With the changing of. Well, you know, if we do ever explore the Doctor who universe, which I. Would love to be, that could be something you do. I will, because I.

Katie (Host) | 00:47:35 to 00:48:05
I love Doctor who. But like Doctor who for a fair while, since I've been watching Doctor who, and I would say it probably started with Chris Eccleston, is that it was always like hinted that Doctor who was queer because they'd been in so many different bodies. And then it alludes to them being female and now they have been female in the series that have come out. And especially with the most recent series of Doctor who that like. Yeah, like Doctor who is beyond genders, beyond sexualities, beyond the binary.

Katie (Host) | 00:48:06 to 00:48:24
Beyond the binary. So now let's look at queer villains before we get distracted by Doctor who. So let's look at queer villains. Historically, villains in comics have often been queer coded because, you know, it's the negativity that was surrounded the times and that kind of stuff. Think flamboyant, eccentric or androgynous characters who are portrayed as deviant or dangerous.

Archie (Host) | 00:48:24 to 00:48:48
So it's kind of like a commentary on the times. If you're looking at the world now, some people still believe that, but lately queer villains have been getting more nuanced and complex, flipping those harmful stereotypes, which is good. Finally. Okay, so take Harley Quinn for example. Ah, originally just the Joker's sidekick, she's really grown into a character with depth and a strong bisexual identity.

Katie (Host) | 00:48:48 to 00:49:12
Yeah. Her relationship with Poison Ivy has been a fan favourite queer couple for years and their romance has been front and centre in both comics and an animated series, which I haven't watched. I think it was like a much more mature audience animated series when I was trying to find it. But there is a animated series called Harley Quinn and it's an adult animated series that's equal parts hilarious and surprisingly nuanced in its portrayal of queer representation. Okay.

Archie (Host) | 00:49:12 to 00:49:32
The show follows Harley Quinn, which is voiced by Kaley Cuoco, as she leaves her toxic relationship with the Joker and embarks on a journey of self discovery with her best friend Poison Ivy, voiced by Lake Bell. So it's something I really, really want to watch. I love it. The beautiful trope of like breast, breast. Friends to lovers.

Katie (Host) | 00:49:32 to 00:49:54
Best friends to lovers. Yeah, I really like that. And one of the standout elements in the show is the slow burn romance between Harley and Ivy. Their friendship evolves into something more and the show beautifully explores the complexity of their feelings with vulnerability and realism. This heartfelt queer romance is well developed and offers a genuine depiction of a relationship that is both funny and deeply emotional.

Katie (Host) | 00:49:55 to 00:49:58
Oh, that's. Yeah. So I think it'd really be up our. Our alley. Our sleeve.

Katie (Host) | 00:49:58 to 00:50:04
Our alley. Yeah. I think it would be, too. It definitely sounds interesting. And I like the.

Katie (Host) | 00:50:04 to 00:50:12
You know when people always joke and they're just like, oh, I'm over men. I'm going to switch to women. Yeah. And I feel like that's what they've done in this. It's just like.

Katie (Host) | 00:50:12 to 00:50:26
Except for the fact that Harley Quinn. They're quite good at the bisexuality element, though I don't feel like I saw of much of that in Harlequin. The Emancipation of One. What is it? Harley Quinn, the Emancipation of One.

Archie (Host) | 00:50:26 to 00:50:33
What is it called? Yeah, yeah, that. That long one. That long name or. I can't remember Birds of Prey being so open.

Archie (Host) | 00:50:33 to 00:50:41
Birds of Prey, the Emancipation of One. Harlequin. Yeah. I don't remember it being so openly about it, but I'm gonna have to have a look back again. We'll have to go back.

Archie (Host) | 00:50:41 to 00:51:06
But I don't remember either. I wonder if that's something that they would bring in into like a future movie or series about that, like, not just being animated. I wonder, though, how much, like, I wonder if the fans of Marvel take on things easier than the fans of dc. I wonder if there's a difference between the fan basis. Because I feel like Marvel is more like we were talking before, like, well known.

Katie (Host) | 00:51:06 to 00:51:17
It gets absorbed a lot better. Or if D.C. fans happen to be a certain genre of individual. I'm not sure that'd be something to look up. I guess it really depends on how well the D.C.

Archie (Host) | 00:51:17 to 00:51:26
anthropology Pride Edition sold. Yeah. And seeing all that kind of stuff. Yeah. So the most famous queer villain would be.

Archie (Host) | 00:51:26 to 00:51:38
And I've already mentioned this person, I don't know, Loki. See, the problem is, is when you said Harley Quinn, I was just like, I don't see her as a villain. I see her as an antihero. Yeah. And the same with Loki.

Katie (Host) | 00:51:38 to 00:51:58
I don't see Loki as a villain. Spoilers. But when you watch Loki and especially the end of Loki, you see the diversity that Loki has between the inner turmoil and his relationships as he's had in his life with what he is. Especially in that, like in the TV series, he's so much. He's so different to the movies.

Archie (Host) | 00:51:58 to 00:52:05
But he is also a time variant in the show. Yes. Yeah, but I see him isn't like. Honestly. No, that's fine.

Katie (Host) | 00:52:05 to 00:52:12
Just the end of it. I cried. I read so much. And in every one they did say Loki was a villain and Harley Quinn was a vill. Yeah.

Katie (Host) | 00:52:12 to 00:52:21
No fair. They're a villain. And the only anti heroes were Mystique and Deadpool. Yeah. So when you put these two against Mystique and Deadpool, you say they're villains.

Katie (Host) | 00:52:21 to 00:52:34
Yeah, I get it, I get it. So Loki, the God of mischief, marbles. Gender fluid bisexual trickster God. Yes, that is Loki. In both the comics and the mcu, Loki challenges the traditional ideas of gender and sexuality.

Archie (Host) | 00:52:34 to 00:52:47
Known for his shape shifting abilities, allowing him to take both masculine and feminine forms, even though it's only really touched on. Really small. In the series Itty Bitty. So Marvel writer Al Ewing. E W I N G.

Archie (Host) | 00:52:47 to 00:53:03
It could be Ewing. Marvel writer Al Ewing made this clear in 2014, noting that Loki occasionally shifts gender and is attracted to multiple genders in Asgard, where heteronormative standards don't apply. I didn't know that. That's really cool. I didn't realise that either.

Katie (Host) | 00:53:03 to 00:53:22
Lost opportunity. Even though I've read this so many times, it's kind of like gone from my head. Loki explains that there are sexual acts. That's it. Additionally, in Disney plus Loki series, a trailer confirmed that Loki's gender is fluid, officially marking the MCU's Loki as gender fluid, further embracing his diverse and complex identity.

Katie (Host) | 00:53:22 to 00:53:36
Huh? Yeah. For so much openness about queerness in diversity of gender and sexuality, they didn't really do much with it, did they? And because it's from Greek mythology. Right?

Katie (Host) | 00:53:36 to 00:53:43
Norse mythology. Norse mythology. And wasn't there a lot of fluid gender and expression or. Not really. Yeah.

Katie (Host) | 00:53:43 to 00:53:56
I mean, I'm. I'm going to preface this saying I'm not a professional in Norse mythology. I just enjoy it a little bit. But like Loki themselves, it is an apt representation. Like, but in the way that it's not a big deal.

Katie (Host) | 00:53:56 to 00:54:27
Like, I feel like the way that we're talking about it here is a big deal because we're talking about our society and how they do things like Norse mythology. He's turned into so many different things and he's had so many different relationships with things that aren't technically what we would call human, ish or humanoid or something. Like he has a lot of children. Like, I think the Asgardian serpent is meant to be one of his Children as well. And then there's a horse.

Katie (Host) | 00:54:27 to 00:54:47
I think, technically, and I could be wrong about this, but I think the horse that Hercules rides is actually one of Loki's children. It's one of those things that the diversity of Loki is more determined by bestiality in a way. Okay. Because it's not like he has. He can have sex with anything in any form.

Katie (Host) | 00:54:48 to 00:54:56
So it's not like a big deal. But it's, like, really odd thinking about it in that term. Okay. It's very. I don't know, it just.

Katie (Host) | 00:54:56 to 00:55:05
I kind of gross myself out. But like, Loki itself in Norse mythology is like, he does whatever. No. Okay. As we're wrapping up, we're seeing more queer characters in.

Archie (Host) | 00:55:05 to 00:55:19
In mainstream media because you wouldn't consider comic books mainstream because not everybody has access to it. It's not widely. So it's not widely consumed. But obviously, Marvel's Wiccan, that's really. I think it's gonna start the talk a lot more about the queer characters in the MCU universe.

Archie (Host) | 00:55:19 to 00:55:41
And so with Wiccan, like I mentioned, the start introducing Wandavision, the son of Wanda Maximoff. Yep. And part of the young Avenger in the comics as Billy Caplan. He develops a power similar to his mother and eventually becomes Wiccan, a member of the Young Avengers. In the comics, Wiccan has a long standing romantic relationship with Hulkling, which is a Kree alien, making them one of Marvel's beloved queer couples.

Archie (Host) | 00:55:41 to 00:56:04
With the MCU teasing the rise of the Young Avengers, I'm wondering how they're gonna bring Hulkling in and where will we start to see Hulkling's story? Were Kree also the ones that can shift into. I find this so interesting that they've put a lot of queerness into creatures or different individuals that can shift. Interesting. Yeah.

Archie (Host) | 00:56:04 to 00:56:27
Maybe it's an easy. It's a palatable way for people to understand. Maybe there's also growing attention on creating space for trans and non binary superheroes. Coyboy, a trans hero from the unbeatable Squirrel Girl, and Jess Chambers, DC's non binary version of the Flash. Just two examples of how trans and non binary characters are starting to get into the comic book universe.

Archie (Host) | 00:56:27 to 00:56:46
And it's not just the creators pushing for better LGBTQ representations. Fans are leading the charge, too. The success of characters like Harley Quinn and the popularity of queer relationships in fan fiction and fan art, because, you see, it's all in the fan art. You know, the depiction of Poison Ivy and Harley Quinn was well before they started this animated series. And so there was a demand for it.

Archie (Host) | 00:56:46 to 00:57:17
And, you know, and there's a more. There's a demand for more diverse and inclusive stories in the mcu, in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, in the DC Cinematic Universe. And while they're doing it in comics, there's still need for it as well in the series. It's funny how sometimes fan culture, for certain things, can actually direct how the writers perceive the storylines in a similar way, but not exactly how. Star wars has so many multiverses.

Katie (Host) | 00:57:17 to 00:57:59
And there's been a lot of people who have written about Star wars and the different derivatives, and sometimes it's been fans or people writing similarly, and then that's actually been bought in and becomes canon in the history of Star wars that I wonder, in the same way that people put out these characters or the writers put out these characters, and then sometimes they take some inspiration for what the world and what the fans turn the character into. Yeah. Well, if there's a demand for it and the fans are the ones who consume the products, you know, the stories, the comics, the merchandise, everything. So you want to keep them happy and you want to appease them to an extent. So by including some of the stories, then you're.

Archie (Host) | 00:57:59 to 00:58:06
You're seeing that there's a need for it. And then. Yeah. Yeah. I wonder, I mean, the amount of queer people in the world.

Archie (Host) | 00:58:06 to 00:58:35
Yes. I wonder if the ratio of queerness or whatever diversity is will ever represent the ratio of queerness or diversity that we see in movies or that we see in comics. I feel that even though we're talking about a lot, and sometimes it does feel like we're talking and it's like, oh, yeah, there's queerness everywhere. And I'm like, well, but if you look at. In ratio to how much, like, heteronormativity is out there, it's actually still not representative of how much we actually see in society.

Archie (Host) | 00:58:35 to 00:58:51
It would be interesting if someone did a survey or a study on how much on all the streaming platforms, how much content was heteronormative and how much was queer. Yeah. And then does that reflect society or is there an imbalance or that kind of thing? That'd be really interesting to see. It would be, wouldn't it?

Archie (Host) | 00:58:51 to 00:59:02
But, yes, that's it. That's. That's the topic that is comics and queer representation. I haven't spoken about all the queer characters, just the ones that most people would know. Yeah.

Katie (Host) | 00:59:02 to 00:59:20
And I think that's the major thing is that, like, unless you happen to be a DC or a Marvel, Stan Yeah. It's quite hard to remember the names of all the backstories of. Sorry if there are any Stans out there. And I know you love Marvel and you will talk about it until the cars come home. There is a lot of times.

Katie (Host) | 00:59:20 to 00:59:36
And thank you very much on my respect that I don't know what you're talking about. And I'll be like, uh huh, uh huh. If you're listening right now, what queer characters that you know from the DC or Marvel universe do you feel like they need to bring to the screen? Or who would you really like to see being queer? Yeah, that too.

Katie (Host) | 00:59:36 to 00:59:42
Get back to us. We'd love to say. Yep. So I hope you enjoyed it. This one took me a long time.

Archie (Host) | 00:59:42 to 01:00:11
I think I've been researching this one for months and months and months. And this was originally, I think, 20 pages that I've cut down to eight because I tried to really minimise it, to make it more palatable because there was so much to talk about. And did you find it interesting and did it change your opinion on any characters that you had read about? I thought it was interesting. Nothing wowed me, but I just thought it was interesting, I think because I've been so disappointed with the representation in the films and stuff that I wasn't surprised that the comic books are so great.

Katie (Host) | 01:00:11 to 01:00:18
Yeah. If that makes sense. Okay. Because even, like, I haven't mentioned, but Valkyrie, you know, Valkyrie is queer in. Oh, yeah.

Archie (Host) | 01:00:18 to 01:00:34
So, yeah, Valkyrie was queer in the comics, but there was no representation really. I feel like it was definitely touched on, but very lightly in the same way that, like, it's. It's just like, oh, yeah, I think she's got a wife or something. Something like that. Yeah.

Katie (Host) | 01:00:34 to 01:00:45
And it just kind of mentioned it and you're like, oh, queer. Yeah. But you wouldn't have picked it unless you were like, maybe queer. And that's the thing. The way that Agatha all along depicted Wiccan was beautiful.

Archie (Host) | 01:00:45 to 01:00:57
There was no he's gay. It was just a young kid in a relationship finding his way. Yeah. That was so well written and it wasn't in your face and I thought that was well done. Yeah.

Archie (Host) | 01:00:57 to 01:01:12
So I hope you liked it. If you enjoyed it, don't forget to rate, review and subscribe because it really helps us get all up on the algorithms. Thank you for everyone who's been doing that on Spotify. You've actually helped us to reach extra 70% this year. So thank you so much for that.

Katie (Host) | 01:01:12 to 01:01:19
And if you've got a friend that you think would really like this episode. Share it with them. Yes, please have a chat. One person. That's all we need.

Archie (Host) | 01:01:20 to 01:01:36
So thank you so much. Thank you for getting all the way to the end and I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you have any ideas for some future episodes, don't forget to leave a comment, send us DM or an email and we'll try to to get onto that. Until next time, I hope that we have been perfectly queer.

Archie (Host) | 01:01:44 to 01:01:46
Let's be perfectly queer.