Drag and Embracing Authenticity: A Conversation with Jessica L'Whor

⚠️ Trigger Warning: Eating Disorders & Body Image

This episode includes discussions about body image & eating disorders. If these topics are sensitive for you, please listen with care. If you need support, consider reaching out to a trusted friend, therapist, or a helpline in your area.

Australian Support Resources:
📞 Butterfly Foundation (Eating Disorder Support) – 1800 33 4673
📞 Lifeline (Crisis Support) – 13 11 14

Your well-being matters. Take care and listen at your own pace. 💜

In this episode of Let’s Be Perfectly Queer, Archie and special guest Jessica L'Whor dive into the highs, lows, and misconceptions of the drag industry. From social media success to the physical and emotional challenges of a drag career, they uncover what it truly takes to thrive in the world of queer performance.

Inside This Episode:

Drag Beyond the Spotlight – Why drag is more than just a hobby and the realities of making it a career.
Social Media & Success – The power of authenticity in building an audience and staying true to yourself online.
The Physical Demands of Drag – The pressure to stay in shape, managing body image, and the impact of eating disorders.
Queer Visibility & Inclusivity – Evolving beauty standards in drag and why representation matters.
Fighting Hate & Discrimination – The challenges faced by drag performers in today’s political climate and how allies can show up for the LGBTQ+ community.

Tune in for an honest, eye-opening, and empowering conversation. 

Plus, don’t forget to follow Jessica L’Whor on social media and check out their podcast!

Jessica L'Whor:

Instagram: @jessicalwhor
Tiktok: @jessicalwhor
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Jessicalwhor
Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/jess-talks/id1661888129
website: https://www.jessicalwhor.com/

Transcript

Podcast: Let's Be Perfectly Queer Podcast

Episode Title: Drag and Embracing Authenticity: A Conversation with Jessica L'Whor

Host(s): Archie

Guest(s): Jessica L'Whor

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Archie (Host) | 00:00:04 to 00:00:31
Welcome to let's Be Perfectly Queer, a queer podcast creating space to talk about all things queer. My name is Archie and I'm joined here today by Colorado's most sought after local drag entertainer, Jessica Lahore. Questions of how you identify, seeking answers to clarify whether queen or somewhere in between. Let's be perfectly clear. Hi, how are you?

Archie (Host) | 00:00:31 to 00:00:41
So good, so good. Thanks for coming on. Yeah, I'm happy to be here. Thanks for having me. Before we start, did you want to tell us a little bit about yourself?

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:00:41 to 00:00:56
Yeah, I can give you like a spark. Note, introduction of Ms. Lahore in front of you. So I am here in Colorado, in the states, in Denver, Colorado. I've been in the industry for eleven and a half years, nine and a half as a full time entrepreneur and artist.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:00:56 to 00:01:12
I am a makeup enthusiast, a fitness fanatic. I do anything from emceeing, event production, philanthropy, drag artistry and more. And I love what I do. Ms. Jessica, for the families or HR departments at your local corporation.

Archie (Host) | 00:01:12 to 00:01:23
Love that, love that. I love that you've got like a PC version of your name. Yeah. The PG to PG 13 crosses over from Ms. Jessica to Jessica Lahore, depending.

Archie (Host) | 00:01:23 to 00:01:39
Love it. So building a brand and your social media success. Many aspiring drag performers, they struggle with getting noticed. You know, it's a big sea of social media and everybody doing different things. So you have done this without being on a reality show.

Archie (Host) | 00:01:39 to 00:02:32
What strategies worked for you in building your career outside of television? I feel like I can tell you more of the strategies that didn't work to my career than the ones that actually did work. I went through a lot of trial and error over the last 11 and a half years, from finding my voice to discovering my own, like, identities as a human being and how everything contributes. I feel like the reason that my brand or like my forced kind of rebranding of my business took off was when I decided to stop trying to put out stuff that I thought other people would enjoy when I was influencing, because I thought this is how the photo needed to look, or people were editing or filtering or doing this or doing that, whatever the reason may be. When I started doing things social media wise, because I wanted to do them, because I was excited to do them, to talk about them, to share my voice, to be a little bit more vulnerable too.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:02:32 to 00:03:05
So that's when things started to thrive. So when I look back before COVID we always use Covid as a reference now, but before COVID I would say that I was in a place of struggling, very complicit, very overwhelmed with so many different departments of what managing your own company looks like. And in 2020, when the world shut down, I was ready to quit drag and get a normal 9 to 5 job. It didn't work out quite the way that I wanted to and it really forced me to completely restructure and rebrand my business. What are the pillars that I stand as Ms.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:03:05 to 00:03:17
Jessica or Jessica Lahore on? How do I want to interact with my audiences? What kind of things do I need to change so that I present more authentically? That restructure took me off. It really is what brought me to the success today.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:03:17 to 00:03:49
Because then about nine years, in two years after Covid, I was like, I, I want people that are experts in these fields to help amplify my voice. And so I put a lot of responsibility on my team Lahore, which is my marketing social media management team where we collaborate on what this brand looks like. And that's helpful too. I can focus on my voice, I can focus on what makes me happy. But then when it comes to the time consuming of editing, publishing and analytics or the algorithm that nobody understands on social media, then I can hire professionals to really to look at that.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:03:49 to 00:04:18
So it's been a balance, but I'm still heavily involved and I love where we've gotten. Yeah, and you spoke about balance with social media. How do you tackle the double edged sword that is authenticity with your personal boundaries when you're sharing your life and bits of you online? Yeah, I mean, I take my approach to social media very differently than other drag artists. I would, I would argue that from the beginning I was never the girl to post a picture online with 18 filters on it.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:04:18 to 00:04:37
What you saw is what you got. Okay. If it wasn't good years ago, it helps see the progression. I think even small things like that help build a connection and a rapport with audiences. For example, when I hired on my marketing team, they wanted to completely rebrand my Instagram and my social media to be more constructive to what Instagram liked.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:04:37 to 00:05:08
And I was very anti that. I said, I want this to be a resume of the human that you're gonna experience from personal life, out of drag, fitness things, makeup stuff, performance based costumes and then, you know, jokes and trends in between. And we've kept that consistently so that when you go to my page and you're scrolling, you see a well rounded human, not an artist or a celebrity. You see somebody that is relatable, somebody that connects with you that might have a little bit more glitter sprinkled over them. The balance part has always been difficult for Me.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:05:08 to 00:05:29
But there are pieces that. I'd say that one of the biggest pieces of social media advice I got is, as you've become more popular, keep things for yourself. Keep little Easter eggs that are just for you, just for your partner, what your relationship, whatever things you think are for you, keep for you at all times. But always hold on to something. That's great advice because some people do find it hard to not share everything.

Archie (Host) | 00:05:29 to 00:05:41
I do enjoy that. You know, you do your stories and everything that's authentically you, you do stuff in and out of drag and that you can show a side to you that makes you human. And I think that's really beautiful. Thanks. I've been working a lot on that.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:05:41 to 00:05:55
So I would say like the. In September, I was like, if I don't start doing this, if I don't start putting out content from the creators like I enjoy, then I'm not going to excel. I need there to be the relatable piece. The relatability is what people love. Yeah, exactly.

Archie (Host) | 00:05:55 to 00:06:09
And talking drag in business, what are some misconceptions people have about the business of drag? That this isn't a possible, like, career. Like, this is just for fun and just a hobby. And for some people it is. And don't get me wrong, when I started, that's what it was.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:06:09 to 00:06:35
But I used to get teased and bullied in my own drag community for several years because my approach was very business oriented while still enjoying my art. And other people were like, it's art based, it's just for fun. And that is true. So true. But my approach to messaging people, creating deals with people, regularity with venues and hosting and like, what I wanted my brand to be all started from an earlier age of be kind of getting that pushback.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:06:35 to 00:07:01
And now it just seems like people think it's not possible. And I'm like, I've been doing this for nine and a half years and surviving and it is very possible. It's a little bit of a struggle. I'd say that when it comes to full time drag, people think that as they get into the drag world, the younger entertainers, they think, oh, I did this one show and I made a bunch of money and I'm gonna quit my job and my life and I'm gonna be a famous drag artist. And that is just so unrealistic.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:07:02 to 00:07:30
One of the things I wish I could have done is gone back and told my younger self to plan for six months to eight months of a savings at the bare minimum before jumping into it, because it's not as lucrative as you think. You find ways to make it lucrative. And that's, you know, as much as I love my art, the financial piece is what fuels me and the ability to continue to do things in my art. Yeah, I think some people, when you start, they either think, oh yeah, we're gonna make a lot of money and then they give up straight away. And some people don't realise that it is a hard slog.

Archie (Host) | 00:07:30 to 00:07:42
Every. Nothing comes easy, nothing worthwhile comes easy. And it's a whole business mindset. And some people forget about that. And this is outside of, you know, I keep talking about like random pieces of advice that I got.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:07:42 to 00:07:57
But as a younger entertainer we have drag aunties, so they're not necessarily. They're just mentors. The drag auntie, I have a drag auntie named Harley Quinn. And early on she was like, you know, any drag artist can paint their face. It may not be good, but everyone can put makeup on their face.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:07:57 to 00:08:16
Everyone can perform a song. Again, it may not be good, it may not be your cup of tea, but everyone can perform a song. Everyone can put on an outfit. It can be cheap or expensive, they can put on an outfit. But what a lot of people can't do is take a mic and MC a like a really well show and produce put together, coordinate with everybody a good show.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:08:16 to 00:08:38
And when I heard that I immediately got into it. I'm known as being probably one of the best producers in the state, one of the best MCs in the state. And that's outside of the art that comes behind it. But that is a lot of the success too is I'm doing things that aren't common in my industry to be able to do successfully on the microphone or just behind the scenes. Yeah, I guess you do forget all the other parts that go on to creating a show.

Archie (Host) | 00:08:38 to 00:09:04
It's not just get on stage and do it. There's so many things happening to make sure that it all works 100%. So if someone wanted to make drag a full time career, you've kind of given some advice, but what's your one big piece of advice you'd give to them? Dedication is one like you're going to know right off the bat. Like you said, if you're going to drop out after a month or are you gonna push through, I would say you're gonna have to be a little bit more.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:09:04 to 00:09:16
What is the word? Mindful of your finances, maybe is the phrasing that I'm looking for as drag artists. You know, the after the after show, fast food, run these. If you're a smoker, cigarettes. It's the.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:09:16 to 00:09:36
Are you taking your pay and using it at drinks at the bar? And it's really buckling down and finding out what are you spending money on? How much are you getting your booking fees recording in Excel sheets? How many tips did I make at these shows? How many tips am I making per average starting the month and listing your expenses at the bare minimum, I need to make this much money to survive this month.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:09:36 to 00:09:51
And then you planned the following months so that you can at least at the bare minimum survive for the month. And then you learn to have income and you don't have as many expenses. So really thinking about that business side. But as an artist, what makes you different? Is it your hosting style?

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:09:51 to 00:10:07
Is it your performance, is it your look, is it your voice? What is it that is making you a little bit different than the other artists that are standing out? And do you have the confidence to back it up? Or are you gonna crumble when a couple of jealous people come at you for being successful? Because that's what happens.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:10:07 to 00:10:21
You wanna continue to grow and be full time. People are gonna do everything to stop your mental capacity and your confidence in your heart to prove to you that you can't. And you have to push through that. You have to be able to push through that. It definitely sounds like, you know, it's getting your finances in order.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:10:21 to 00:10:31
Yeah. And then also people are going to hate. And so it's just like, what do you do to over overcome that? No matter what industry, people like to bring each others down. It's, you know, the tall poppy syndrome.

Archie (Host) | 00:10:31 to 00:10:42
You don't want everybody to be up there, you want to pull them down too. And I don't understand that. It's like as a community, wouldn't it be better if we just, okay, this person's doing a great job, let's uplift them. But sometimes jealousy does get in the way. Yeah.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:10:42 to 00:10:56
And the thing is, I think jealousy is completely natural. It's how you manage it and handle it. I think being jealous of somebody is great. But me saying, I'm jealous of this person, they should not succeed. I'm going to make sure that they don't succeed is different than saying, I'm jealous.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:10:56 to 00:11:00
I want to do that. I want to be able to do that. So cool. I want to do. I wish I could do that.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:11:00 to 00:11:09
Instead of saying I wish I'm going to do, you know, changing your language about it. Yeah, no, I totally agree. And you know, drag is an Art, but it's also work. And that's what we're talking about. So people forget.

Archie (Host) | 00:11:09 to 00:11:22
So people see this art performance, like, oh, that's really cool art, but it's also a job. It's a career. It's work. What's one aspect of being a drag entrepreneur that people just don't talk about enough? I don't think that people talk about.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:11:22 to 00:11:40
We talk about the different moving parts, like, you're a producer, you're an influencer, you're an artist, things like that. But it's physically taxing. People look at drag and think that it's so beautiful and it's so well put together. And we have this constant argument about, you know, drag. People are always naked in front of kids in public.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:11:40 to 00:12:02
And in reality, we're wearing the most constrictive, most, most uncomfortable, most destructive clothing sometimes. And with our performance style, you have people that are throwing their bodies all over, and I don't think people understand the physicality behind it. That really comes with the job. And what do you do to make sure that you're in the best kind of shape? And physically, do you go to physiotherapy or anything like that?

Archie (Host) | 00:12:02 to 00:12:12
How do you do that? If you were to. I laugh at this. The reason I'm laughing is because if you were to ask me this question, like, before COVID hit, I would tell you, I don't do anything. I'm just in me.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:12:12 to 00:12:35
I. I don't like walking or exercising. And then, like I said, Covid changed a lot of different things. And what I was trying to get into a gown when we had to wear masks and perform. And then at the end of my number, not only is my zipper busted because I outgrew that gown, and I'm sweating profusely and I'm dry heaving, trying to catch my breath, and all I did was walk around.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:12:35 to 00:13:03
That was a real clear sign that if I wanted to continue in this, I had to create some kind of stamina and some kind of regular fitness routine. I'm not saying you gotta be big and muscly in bulk or anything, but the idea of, like, being active and being on your feet and building that physicality is really important. So for me, I started by going, like, 15 minutes on the treadmill each day. And I did that for a while because the gym was not my friend, and I didn't like it. Then it upgraded to, you know, half hour, then an hour.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:13:03 to 00:13:29
Then I started lifting a little bit of weight, and then I started doing some abs. And then I was like, oh, well, I'm interested in running. So I started being active in dance classes and 5Ks and now I look five years later and you know, last year I worked with a trainer for six months and I really got my routine together and I, I still have a good strict diet with like how I eat whatever I want, but I constantly am pushing my body to build that resistance. No, that totally makes sense. So it's really.

Archie (Host) | 00:13:29 to 00:13:53
Drag is more than just performing, it's the whole other part. So it's being like an athlete with some of the stuff that you have to do well. And we're talking about full time drag artistry. If this is something that's just a hobby for you, maybe you don't need to take things as serious. But if you're really looking at, at doing this seriously and full time, there are some things that you have to, you just got to buck up and do to make sure that you can be successful.

Archie (Host) | 00:13:53 to 00:14:11
On the treadmill, do you ever to like lip sync and try to keep your fitness up like that? Oh yes. I have people watching me. I am doing my own things. I am shimmy, I am strutting my stuff and you can tell when the beat doesn't align with the speed and I miss my step and then I eat shit.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:14:11 to 00:14:21
So I don't. Can I. I don't know if I can sort. But yeah, I eat it and people just look at me, I'm like, sorry. I was in the moment like practising my song and I just biffed it on the treadmill.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:14:21 to 00:14:36
Yeah, I do that all the time. That's dedication, that's fun. So you're going on a 50 city tour. I hate to burst the bubble. I have been looking forward to doing a 50 city tour for the last year and a half and putting in, planting the seeds and kind of getting things ready.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:14:37 to 00:15:12
The US current administration, as you know, is very scary in a lot of different ways. And in no way does that mean that I'm not going to continue to work or to travel or do things. It is so unpredictable that I can feel it in my gut. As a reminder of 2016 when he was elected the first time, or 2020 when he left and Covid hit that. I do not think it is a smart business decision to invest into this tour the way that I would want to with the lack of knowing what is going to happen in this world, in our country.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:15:12 to 00:15:38
It is so crazy here right now that I'm not willing to risk that. So my compromise is what I'm gonna do is an Ask a Queen tour. So a couple of cities here and there to do my series on the street where I'll perform at a venue, I'll do my questions in that same city and then I leave. And it's like two a month, maybe, maybe three a month. And that's kind of what I'm looking at more than being like 50 cities back to back.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:15:38 to 00:15:51
Because I don't trust it. I just don't. And I'm not going to put myself in a position that is where I'm losing money, where it has to get cancelled. It doesn't feel right. So I'm deterring my focuses on other things this year.

Archie (Host) | 00:15:51 to 00:16:00
Yeah. And. And you've got to look out for yourself and your safety and your, your mental well being. And that's the thing. So things change and sometimes you have to adapt to the times and it is sad.

Archie (Host) | 00:16:01 to 00:16:17
But you've also got to make sure that you are okay, your business is okay and that you're going to be financially okay as well. I've always been a strong believer of only releasing things when it feels right to. And sometimes that takes. I have a project I released last fall that took five years to complete because it wasn't the right moment. It wasn't the right moment.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:16:17 to 00:16:26
And I have projects that I can get off the ground in a month because I just know this is what needs to happen. And right now I feel like it's. We're gonna wait. We're gonna wait it out a little bit. Yeah.

Archie (Host) | 00:16:26 to 00:16:45
And you know, and if that's what the universe is telling you, you have to see the signs. And we hope that you're doing okay. Cause we do feel for all of our listeners and everyone over in the States at the moment. It is scary watching and it's scary because in Australia it could happen here too. We need to look at the world and see what's going around and seeing where we can learn from it.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:16:46 to 00:17:08
It's true. So with your live show, you're doing this Ask a Queen what can listeners from the States who are going to be there, what can they expect from your little live performances? And you're on the streets for people who've never heard of your Ask a Queen series before. Yeah. So I do an Ask a Queen Anything series where I post up with an easel on a in random parts of the country.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:17:08 to 00:17:32
I've gone to other states to do this too. And I have a bunch of money and you ask me as a drag artist a question and I give you money for every question that I've never been asked. And I can tell you there's no question I've never been stumped by or like caught off guard by. There's nothing inappropriate as long as it comes with the best intentions. And two, you can expect to get a real, whether you want it or like it or not, genuine answer.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:17:32 to 00:17:46
And you should know that when asking your question because if you're asking a silly question, I'm going to answer it really honestly. And if you may not like what I have to say, so that's kind of what you can expect. And always a warm hug. It's always welcome at the end of that too. No, I love that.

Archie (Host) | 00:17:46 to 00:18:06
And you're going to do little shows. What do you do in your shows? Do you have specific things that you do or is it kind of based on the city or that kind of thing? When I guest in other places, I like to figure out what exactly they're looking for. And my, my preference is doing a three number set as a guests in another city.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:18:06 to 00:18:23
And I usually do something super high energy, very dance, very, very fun up, bouncing beat movement. The second number is usually something ridiculously comedic. So stupid. Really uncomfortably stupid. Probably a dirty twist on there maybe.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:18:23 to 00:18:38
And then I love doing a variety piece which is usually at the end. So that could be a burlesque number, for example. That could be an impersonation, for example. Something to kind of own in on the full circle of like what I can provide as an artist. Yeah.

Archie (Host) | 00:18:38 to 00:18:58
And what's your favourite part out of all of those kind of three, what's your favourite part to do? I love stupid performances. I at heart, in my heart, I am a comedy queen. I love to do ridiculous storytelling that makes like you uncomfortable or have to really think. But I know that I can't do that all the time and I don't want to do that all the time.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:18:58 to 00:19:16
So I dabble into so much. But in my heart and soul, I love making people feel respectfully uncomfortable. Like they're watching me and they're like, what the hell is happening right now? And that makes me happy. So let's now talk body positivity, gender, self image, because that's something you're really strong about.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:19:16 to 00:19:44
Yeah. You've been open about your eating disorder and how it relates to gender and drag and it's something I hadn't even thought about. So how has your journey with your body image evolved over time? You know, I'm really proud to say that as like I'm sitting on this podcast you asked me again many years ago. I'm at the most manageable, most positive part of my life with my relationship with my body and the way that it, it comes into my drag.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:19:44 to 00:20:03
Do I still struggle a little bit on the day to day? Yes, but I would say that's more identity wise. I identify as a trans, non, binary human and I also love the gym. So on the days that I want to be a little dainty, feminine, a little softer, I'm reminded that I'm a broad back butch barb. And people like to remind me that as well.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:20:03 to 00:20:29
And so that definitely comes into play. I would say anyone that is struggling or has ever experienced eating disorders, regardless of the scale that they're going through with that, knows that it never goes away. It's all about managing. And I'm really thankful to have a strong mind power, strong will to control and manage when my eating disorders come into negative places in my life and how I can remove them. And not everybody is in that position.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:20:29 to 00:20:56
We look at 11 years ago, Jessica, who would do some really terrible things just to feel a little bit better about themselves and masked their insecurities with their eating disorders. With drag, drag was the ability to make it seem okay because I was skinny, I was feminine, I was that. And then you get out of the makeup and you realise that I'm unhealthy, I'm sick, I'm not okay. And so that balance was very difficult. And at the time when that was going on, I wasn't out to anybody.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:20:56 to 00:21:25
So everybody in the drag world that saw Jessica never knew my government name, never knew what I looked like, never knew anybody I was related to, never knew it was me. And everybody outside of the drag world had no idea that I was queer, had no idea I did drag, had no idea that I wanted to be an artist, anything like that. So balancing several different lives at that time was super destructive. And when I came out, I took control of my eating disorder stuff as well. And I turned my life around in many ways.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:21:25 to 00:21:55
To become one single human that manages problems on the day to day and realises in or out of drag that my voice, my body, my style, my, my appearance all is collectively one person managing it, rather than trying to manage it depending on the mindset that I have to be in. That would have been really hard having like separate boxes that you were putting yourself into. It was hard for a while. Like, how did you cope? I had a family that was super strict, that wasn't interested in anything like that.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:21:55 to 00:22:09
So when I went home, I would Dress different, sound different. I just felt like I was lying to everybody, including myself. Lying and creating stories and it just wasn't fun anymore. And then when I got the opportunity to come out, it really shifted my world. Yeah.

Archie (Host) | 00:22:09 to 00:22:41
And do you think that drag played a part in you coming out as trans, non binary? Um, you know, I can't. I can't say it didn't. I feel like when I feel like drag really helped decipher or bring a happy medium for my trans non binary identity, where if I didn't have drag, I think that I have a healthy balance that I'm able to. I dress up almost every day in drag for work and I think that fulfils that, that huge side of me wanting to explore with that.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:22:41 to 00:23:11
And I haven't gotten to the point yet in my trans identity that I want to move into gender, gender surgery, reassignment surgery or hormone replace placement therapy or anything like that. But it's never been out of the question. I've considered it many times. A year ago I considered it because there's something missing and I think that's, that's the confusion piece is that I'm happy just waking up and existing. But there is something missing in who I think that I am trying to express.

Archie (Host) | 00:23:11 to 00:23:23
Yeah. And everybody's journey is different and there's no strict timeline or set timeline that you have to meet as well. And when or if you are ready, that's something that you can cross. And some people don't realise that. You don't have to rush.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:23:23 to 00:23:44
Yeah, absolutely. You have people in their 80s coming out as trans or queer and whenever the time is right. Yeah. But I totally relate as a trans person of that thing that was missing, you know, because I was gender fluid for a while and just trying to see if that fit me. And at the end of the day, it fit to an extent, but it wasn't the perfect fit.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:23:44 to 00:23:58
Yeah. And. And some people need to think that, hey, everybody's journey is different and you may be non binary, maybe trans, you may want to go on hormones, you may never want to go on hormones. And that is totally okay. Everyone's going to show up a little bit different for.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:23:58 to 00:24:13
For themselves. What role do you think drag plays in challenging traditional beauty standards? You know, the society, social media says this is beauty. What do you think drag does to challenge that? So you have two different beauty standards.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:24:13 to 00:24:48
You have drag beauty standards and then society beauty standards. If you are a fan of drag, I would say now more than ever we are in the mentality that how you want to present with your sexuality, your identity in your art in drag is acceptable. Drag is your interpretation of a fluidity of gender that you want to bring on the stage. It's not like it used to be old school drag where you had a chest and hips and soft face and very feminine and you were a woman, you were a woman like you were like stamped. It's not like that anymore.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:24:49 to 00:25:18
It's so much more than just female illusion, but female illusion is part of that. And when you're looking at beauty standards, you have people that you can tell very blatantly the people that are willing to progress with the times of drag beauty standards and say, you know, this isn't my style, but hey, look at how happy they are. I love it. Go, go have your fun, you know, and the people that are not continuing to be successful because their view of what drag is is so restrictive to what we're bringing to the stage. And they say, well, that's not drag.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:25:18 to 00:25:40
I'm not working with that person. Instead of saying, that's not my drag. I can still work with that person. When it comes to societal beauty standards, I think the hardest thing that I have an arg hard time arguing with is with folks, especially CIS women, where they think that drag is a mockery of the Persona of them. And part of me can't argue with their own individual perception.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:25:40 to 00:26:12
If you feel mocked as a CIS woman, that is a different conversation. And I would argue back that most of the time that CIS women look at drag that way, they don't have a full understanding of what, what it all is, what we're doing, where it comes from, who the person is behind. And so the art, you know, the societal beauty standards especially. And we're looking at this in the US with trans bans and stuff. If you're not passable as a woman, passable as a woman, then we have to create laws that restrict you because we're uncomfortable.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:26:12 to 00:26:29
Or if you look like a drag queen, we have an issue for it. If you're big makeup, big hair, clown, if you're obviously a man in a dress, we don't want that. That is what society's looking at. And the thing is, they don't even regard drag kings in existence. Society, I would say, in the way that they should.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:26:29 to 00:26:52
Non binary performers, alternative performers, it's wild. And I'd say that even happens in the community itself. But societal drag standards, I feel like, have reverted so much, especially in the US with the administration, that if you are in drag, there's no beauty. You're a problem. If we can tell that you're a man, even if you're not a man man, then you're the problem.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:26:52 to 00:27:02
And that's really where we're at. Do you think it's going to be harder being a drag performer in this next four years? Very much so. Very, very much so. I think we're already kind of seeing it.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:27:02 to 00:27:40
I'm seeing it. The level of Trump allows people to feel comfortable expressing the terrible inner thoughts and feelings that they have to say them, to act on them. And this happened before he was elected. And now that he's elected, we're seeing in the comment threads of photos and videos, protesters, laws, even the way that people are speaking about drag artists, even though I believe is all a distraction, still, genuinely, it's so awful. We're seeing it get worse and people are getting more bold to confront people in person, to.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:27:41 to 00:27:55
To come to events and put themselves in these positions, to record and have as evidence for whatever they want. It's. It's getting to a really weird place. I don't know about you, but I've noticed there's a lot more hate online and more people are vocal about their hate. Yeah.

Archie (Host) | 00:27:55 to 00:28:06
Are you dealing with that? How are you dealing with that? I don't care about the hate online people. People ask me this all the time. I have posts with tens of thousands of nasty comments and.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:28:06 to 00:28:18
And I read, and I don't read through them, but occasionally I'll get bored. I'm on the toilet, taking my morning dump, and I'm like, let's look at the haters. And it's. They're awful. They make me laugh at how creatively disgusting they are.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:28:19 to 00:28:37
Like, I. These are people that have no merit to me. And I've talked about this. I'm not bothered by comments. The only way that you're gonna get under my skin and make me feel like I'm actually bothered by you calling me a groomer or a paedophile, or you think that I'm indoctrinating kids or I'm the f.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:28:37 to 00:28:44
The F word, which is not even creative anymore. Hello. It's 2025. We call each other that one all the time. It doesn't bother me.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:28:44 to 00:29:06
It has to come from somebody that has merit in my life. If it came from somebody I've been working with for years or as a family member or somebody in the community that I've known for years, that's where it would sting. These are all people have nothing better to do. Where I need to play and be cool is that there are people that are unpredictable, like we talked about. And if you play back, which I really love, I love messing with people in the comments.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:29:06 to 00:29:26
I love it so much. There are too many times that I've gotten messages threatening my place of work that say, I'm going to come to your show tonight. I hope that you're safe. And I have to warn the staff I'm putting people in danger. So I really have reclused on the way that I mess with people because it's a safety issue and my schedule is public.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:29:27 to 00:29:44
People know where I'm going to be at all times, from my story to my posts. And I have to be cognizant that people could easily go. And I hate to put this idea out there and look at that and say, well, I'm going to come to your show tonight or you're in the city. I'm going to come to your. Your city or I'm going to come where you're at.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:29:44 to 00:29:55
I just don't want to play with it. Yeah, but it's very true. You have to worry about your own safety and those kind of stuff. And so the way that you used to interact, you kind of have to censor it a little bit for the safety of yourself and all the people involved in your shows. Yes.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:29:56 to 00:30:06
My now general response is usually just three emojis. It's rainbow flag, trans flag, rainbow flag. And it pisses everybody off. And that's all you need something small. It's the easiest response and it pisses everybody off.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:30:06 to 00:30:14
But I'm. I don't use any language or I always. I'm like, I respond. I'm like, thank you so much for supporting a queer business with your comments today. And they hate that too.

Archie (Host) | 00:30:14 to 00:30:28
I love that. I've also noticed, which is kind of sad. And I'm not sure if we're talking about beauty standards in general. I've noticed as well online that people are starting to attack women. CIS women who may look a little bit masculine.

Archie (Host) | 00:30:28 to 00:30:46
Do you think it's going to get worse? Yeah, I mean, we, we saw that in our. Our government. What was that a week ago with Lauren Boebert yelled at a woman in her restroom for being a man and then found out that she was a CIS woman because she was less done up. You know, that beauty standard kind of thing.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:30:46 to 00:31:08
And it's just another reminder that instead of worrying about if a man or a woman's in your bathroom, you should just worry about taking your piss, washing your hands and going Back to your job and let the other people in the bathroom take their pisses, wash their hands and go back to their jobs. But that's not where we're at. It's like, what, are you going to look under every stall just to make sure there's no men in the women's. No. No one cares.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:31:08 to 00:31:16
We're not the no one. We're going pee. You're good. But the thing is as well, it's like America's forgot that trans men exist. That's it.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:31:16 to 00:31:48
And that the thing is when trans men come into some of these podcasts or like head to head conversations, and I watch them all the time on TikTok and they start off, they ask their question and they respond the. Usually the MAGA Republican response. And then their next statement is just so you know, you're talking to a trans man and you can see it on their face that they had no idea because they're not even looking, they're not even acknowledging that existence. And then they start bringing in reproductive rights, which do apply to trans men. And then they don't know how to respond because then you're saying, well, I should have rights over my body, but I'm a.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:31:48 to 00:31:54
I'm a woman, so. But this is. So you want me in your. In your women's bathrooms. And then they don't know what to say.

Archie (Host) | 00:31:54 to 00:32:11
That's exactly it. It's like, you can't have both sides. It doesn't make sense to your argument. And then I've also seen online as well that there'll be a trans man who's in a relationship or married to a CIS woman. And then the MAGA haters are like, oh, we can see you still have a penis to this woman.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:32:11 to 00:32:36
People think that we have the obsession with genitals. And I would say that I don't. I've never had so many more people obsessed with my genitals, how I move my genitals, how I do what I do in the bedroom, more than conservative MAGA individuals. And I'm like, you're thinking more about this than I've ever thought about in my life. But it's also internal misogyny that we have to deal with that just happens.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:32:36 to 00:32:50
It's the misogyny against wanting to be a woman. And then the misogyny of realising that there are, there are trans men who were. Who were biologically assigned a certain way, like, and then that's a different conversation in itself. People don't know how to handle that. No.

Archie (Host) | 00:32:50 to 00:32:58
And it's Crazy. So let's. Let's move to body positivity. Let's get away from the MAGA talk. Yeah, I'm sure it's going to come back because it's what's happening in the world.

Archie (Host) | 00:32:58 to 00:33:27
But so with your body positivity, how do you advocate for that within the drag community and outside the drag community. It'S all about language and how you talk to other people or about other people or yourself. As a host and emcee, it's important to make jokes, not at the expense of people in the audience. And you can kind of pick on yourself a little bit for people to feel more safe with you. But ultimately, you know, I don't believe anybody should be read for their looks as a drag artist.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:33:28 to 00:33:40
Unless. Unless you've started shit. Unless you have stirred the pot and you came in, you came, you come into a room, and clearly you're not put together. Let's just say wigs not put together, makeup's not put together. No one's going to say anything.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:33:40 to 00:34:07
If they're respectful and they're decent drag artists, they're not going to say anything. Let this newer entertainer, whoever this person is, exist in that space. But let's say that person then starts running their mouth and talking shit about everybody there and how they're ugly and they can't do this and they can't do that. Be prepared for people to come at your looks and come at you for stuff because they weren't going to talk about it. But now it's kind of like you've opened this door to talk about somebody else's looks when you shouldn't have done that to begin with.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:34:07 to 00:34:25
And now we're going to talk about the way that you present your drag and you're not going to like it, and it doesn't have to get to that place. It's very rare, but the. I just. I feel like people are more obsessed with how others are looking rather than looking at what they can do better for themselves. And sometimes you have to look internally and see why you saying certain things.

Archie (Host) | 00:34:25 to 00:34:51
And is it a place of insecurity or is it a place of hatred? Is a place of jealousy? And what can you do to overcome those body issues or those body dysmorphic comments that you're saying? Yeah, and if you're with a group of people in the dressing room, for example, and people are talking negatively about themselves, that's an opportunity for you to overhear and call them out and say, no, like this is. This isn't accurate or Say nicer things about your body or something like that.

Archie (Host) | 00:34:52 to 00:35:23
Yeah. And, you know, and for some people with drag, there can be those unhealthy ideals of what a drag body should be. What's your take or what's your opinion on that? My opinion is, is probably a very unpopular one and it goes back to the things that I've been saying you should do what makes you comfortable in your body. If you want hairy chest, hairy legs, facial hair, for example, which is very controversial unnecessarily in the drag world, then do it.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:35:23 to 00:35:54
If you are somebody that doesn't want to corset or doesn't want a pad or doesn't want to tuck or doesn't want to do that, that's fine. But also know while choosing to make these decisions, whether you do corset or not, it still needs to look presentable in a way that's entertaining. You are still hired to do a job. And if you are not entertaining, those things that people will hook onto that are not stereotypical to the drag world will enhance them more. Okay.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:35:54 to 00:36:10
And are you creating a story? Are you entertaining and engaging on the stage? Are you lip syncing or are you just doing the bare minimum? And it's not that entertaining. And on top of that, it feels as though what's authentic to you is not an investment into the art that you want to present.

Archie (Host) | 00:36:11 to 00:36:25
Yeah. So drag doesn't have to be in a box. You can make it your own, but you need to make sure that it's still a performance and that it's still meeting certain criteria that's going to allow you to be within the space and be safe and feel comfortable in this. In the space. That's.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:36:25 to 00:36:34
And that's my take on it. It's more about, are you telling a story and are you entertaining on the stage? Okay. And that's what I'm looking for. That's.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:36:34 to 00:36:40
That's it. Yeah. Because some people do it for shock value and it doesn't work all the time. Yeah, it can be shock value. It can be shock value.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:36:40 to 00:37:15
You can be gross, it can be disgusting, it can be alternative, it can be weird, it can be comedic, but if it doesn't hit with them, that's not what they see. They just see you being a mess. So with drag, do you think it's a safe space for people who are non binary or who are questioning their gender identity to better understand their own gender identity? I think that it can be helpful or a hindrance, and I think it depends on what illusion you see yourself Fitting in because you don't want the illusion to turn into delusion. What do you see for yourself in your mind?

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:37:16 to 00:37:39
And if that is, if you're finding drag is conflicting or skewing your happiness outside of it. You can't have a successful drag Persona if you're not happy underneath. And if the drag Persona is something that you find yourself, you never want to wash your makeup off, you never want to take your wig off. At the end, you leave your bra and your pads on. You find yourself looking at your curves because you're more feminine and you appreciate things differently.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:37:39 to 00:38:01
That could be a rise of some questions about your identity and saying, maybe this is how I want to live on a day to day. This is the person I want to be. And some people say, you know, this is definitely I want to get out of it as fast as possible. This is not for me whatsoever. And then you have non binary people like myself where sometimes I do have that fantasy moment in drag where I just never want to get out of it.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:38:01 to 00:38:22
And then I'm quickly reminded that I'm ready to get out of it and continue just to live in the body that I have. Yeah. So it's just making sure that you have your kind of strategies in place to make sure that you're okay while you're looking at your gender identity and those kind of things as well. I just think it's. It's making sure that you don't fall into the mask of people enjoying the way you look in drag and not enjoying the person underneath the drag.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:38:22 to 00:38:39
And if the person that they enjoy is in drag and they're not appreciating out of drag, maybe it's because you're meant to always be that person that is in drag that is always done up. That is, that is the transness. For me, that is what I say, like maybe that's what it is. That totally makes sense. And with drag queens, you always push boundaries, right?

Archie (Host) | 00:38:39 to 00:38:54
You push boundaries. You like to have those conversations around sexuality, identity. What are the conversations you think that right now we need to be having? We need to start having conversations about. How do I phrase this?

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:38:54 to 00:39:14
Finances. In the booking industry, our queer venues should be the most supportive of the queer artists. And I would say they are not. And that's across the board. The queer venues are the ones taking advantage of the queer artists and the straight venues are the ones that are showing appreciation to the queer venues.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:39:14 to 00:39:33
And it should be backwards. It should. Or the same in some capacity. And in the queer venues, the conversation that we need to have is why when I ask to be paid what I'm worth, you're willing to get rid of me to hire this new person who has no experience, the same level that I do, but will do it cheaper. So let's talk about pay equality in the dry.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:39:33 to 00:40:01
And then that brings in the king conversation. Why are our kings not being booked more? Given as many opportunities, paid the exact same as queens or our non binary friends or alternative friends as well? And so starting some of those, I'd say the other one is, how do we get to a place of not trying to one up each other or push the other people out of a successful circle? And like you said, how do we, how do we find a way to add to the pie so everybody can, can have a slice.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:40:01 to 00:40:20
Everyone can be part of the experience. Welcome to the table. However, whatever metaphor you want to have for it. But I'd say those two are huge. And then if we're looking at just like the world as a whole, I think the conversations around what do we do and how do we work together to show up during this time?

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:40:20 to 00:41:03
Show up without fear, show up with pride, show up that we exist to drag artists are usually at the forefront of many movements and just standing up for what we believe is correct. So how do we work together to make those voices be heard and to change and to remind the people that don't do drag that are in our community that they have leaders, they have people that are looking out for them that will provide safe spaces for them. As a drag performer, then do you feel like you have this kind of obligation to stand up or do you feel like you're okay just doing your thing for the moment. I thought that I had an obligation earlier in my drag career, and I would say that it was destructive to have that, that feeling. And I'd say the same thing with celebrities.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:41:03 to 00:41:22
It's. And I hate to use so many analogies, but when a celebrity's like our parents, like, well, why do you let my kid. Why are you making songs with these bad words in it? My kid is listening to the song and the artist is like, that's not my job. For me to, to tell you what your kids should be listening to or what they should or shouldn't be hearing?

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:41:22 to 00:41:42
My job is to make the music, you know, that's very different. I would say it's kind of the same thing. It's that same idea of like, I'm going to continue to do what I want to do. And my role as a leader is because I choose to be a leader not because I'm obligated. And there are times that I disagree with my community and my community disagrees with me.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:41:42 to 00:42:05
And they say, well, you're, you're, you're the most followed one in the city or the state, or you have the most bookings, you have the loudest voice, you should be doing this, this, this and that. And sometimes they're absolutely right. Holding accountability is very different than ignoring what is being said to me. And sometimes that doesn't align. It's not my job to be the saviour for every bar issue, political issue and everything.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:42:05 to 00:42:21
I'm a human surviving, just like you. And the compromise is the reasonable approach to saying, I acknowledge these things are happening, these are where I want to put my efforts, but these don't align with me. And I'm going to leave this to a different leader to advocate for. People need to remember that you're still a human at the end of the day. You're not a superhero.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:42:21 to 00:42:36
Exactly. You may look like a superhero with your fabulous outfits, and sometimes I do. But I am not here to save the world. Exactly. And sometimes it's about numbers rather than just relying on one person or a group of people.

Archie (Host) | 00:42:36 to 00:42:52
And community is powerful. People need to remember that in these dark times, in these uncertain times, it's community that will be the strength, not just one person. Absolutely, that's. That's exactly it. And so is there a message you want to tell our listeners before we go today?

Archie (Host) | 00:42:52 to 00:43:32
What do you want our listeners to get out of this conversation or something that you want to stick with them? I have two things that I'm going to say because of the times that we're in. The first is if you are somebody out there that is wanting to experience drag and for any reason you have felt a pushback, that this is not something you're allowed to participate in, or because you don't look a certain way, identify a certain way, or somebody told you you are allowed to participate in drag, Everybody is allowed to try it, enjoy it, go to the shows. If someone's like, well, I'm a straight girl, I'm told I can't go to the gay bars, that's incorrect. Drag is for everybody.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:43:32 to 00:44:08
It should be accessible to everyone of all ages, of all, all styles and varieties, and that's that. And the second thing is, for this podcast, if you're an ally that is listening to this podcast, allyship is not just supporting podcasts, going to drag shows, especially in times right now, there's a Lot of misinformation, a lot of lies being spread about trans and queer people and drag artists. And you as an ally need to take what I'm saying. Take the things that you hear. And when you're in spaces or online and people are spreading this misinformation, you have to step up and use your voice.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:44:08 to 00:44:18
We're talking about group and numbers, allies. It's really time for you to step up a little bit. That is my last message, more than ever. We can't carry everything. Drag artists can't, queer people can't.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:44:18 to 00:44:28
Everyone is suffering. Allies. If you are a lover of queerness, you need to step up. Yeah. It's like you can't just enjoy queerness for the drag shows or pride and then walk out.

Archie (Host) | 00:44:28 to 00:44:36
It's a. It's a whole year round. If you're going to support us during, then you need to support us all year, especially when we need you. Don't just use us as an entertainment or fun. You got it.

Jessica L'Whor (Guest) | 00:44:36 to 00:44:48
That's it, honey. Thanks, everyone for listening. Don't forget, I will put all of Jessica Lahore's links in our show notes. Show them some love. And I really hope that you enjoyed our chat today.

Archie (Host) | 00:44:48 to 00:44:57
It's been absolutely wonderful. I hope you've had a lot of fun too, Jessica. I had a blast. Thank you so much. So if you like this episode, don't forget to rate, review and subscribe.

Archie (Host) | 00:44:57 to 00:45:09
Follow Jessica Lahore on all of their social medias. And they also have a podcast too, so why don't you check that out. But until next time, I hope that. We have been perfectly queer.

Archie (Host) | 00:45:17 to 00:45:19
Let's be perfectly queer.