Social Transitioning, Agatha All Along and the Costs of Gender Reconfiguration Surgery

In this episode, we're diving into the fascinating world of queer representation in pop culture, specifically exploring the character of Agatha in the hit show Agatha All Along. Is it true representation or just Queer baiting? 

But that's not all. We also delve into the concept of social transitioning, discussing what it means to reflect your true, authentic self in your everyday life. From choosing a new name to changing pronouns and adopting different gender presentations, we cover it all. We share personal stories and experiences that shed light on this transformative journey.

We understand that social transitioning can be a complex and sometimes daunting process. That's why we provide valuable tips for a positive social transition, including taking it at your own pace, practicing self-care, and seeking support. We believe that everyone's journey is unique, and we accept and celebrate that diversity.

Join us as we navigate the complexities of representation, social transitioning, and the beautiful diversity of the queer experience. 

So, grab your headphones, get comfortable, and immerse yourself in the magical world of Let's Be Perfectly Queer. It's a podcast that embraces all aspects of queer identity and reminds us that the journey to self-discovery and acceptance is a beautiful, transformative adventure.

Until next time lovelies, stay perfectly queer!




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Phone:

• Lifeline is available 24/7 – 13 11 14
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Online:

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Transcript

Podcast: Let's Be Perfectly Queer

Episode Title: Social Transitioning, Agatha All Along And The Costs Of Gender Reconfiguration Surgery

Host(s): Archie, Katie

Guest(s): 

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Archie (Host) | 00:00:04 to 00:00:15
Welcome to let's be perfectly queer, a. Queer podcast, creating space to talk about all things queer. My name is Archie. And I'm Katie. And we are your hosts.

Katie (Host) | 00:00:15 to 00:00:29
Questions of how you identify, seeking answers to clarify whether you're queen or somewhere in between. Let's be perfectly queer. And we're back. We are. And it is LGBT History Month.

Archie (Host) | 00:00:29 to 00:00:58
Did you know that? Oh, I actually didn't. It's funny, I don't have the best memory for stuff, and I always tend to find the dates after, like, I don't know, it was like bye week, and I only knew Bye week because we're having that fabulous interview with Beth. And apart from that, I'm actually pretty clueless when it comes to things coming up and going past. Do have any idea why October is considered LGBTQIA history Month?

Katie (Host) | 00:00:58 to 00:01:18
I would have thought it's when at least some rights it would have been. I think it would have been associated with some kind of legislation. So I'm only going to tell you a little bit. There is so much more and why it started, but basically it is in October to coincide with national coming out day on 11 October. Okay.

Archie (Host) | 00:01:18 to 00:01:32
There's also some history with, I think, an american teacher. We don't have enough time to go in that today. Maybe that could be a future thing we look at. Sounds good. So for those of you who are Marvel fans out there, I'm sure that you've seen Agatha all along.

Archie (Host) | 00:01:32 to 00:01:44
What do we think? Queer representation or queer baiting? I think it's queer representation. Yep. And the reason I think it's queer representation is because queerbaiting how I feel it is.

Katie (Host) | 00:01:44 to 00:01:54
And I could be wrong. I mean, I'm not an expert on it. I just am a queer with an opinion. I think it's like you can actually see they're in a relationship. Yep.

Katie (Host) | 00:01:54 to 00:02:02
Yeah. They evidently nearly kiss. They like the spark. Oh, shit. Spoiler alert.

Katie (Host) | 00:02:02 to 00:02:14
Awkward. I'm gonna stop this now. What do you think? So basically, Joe Locke, who plays teen, explained it's got many layers, and gay is one of them. That's one of the great things about the show.

Archie (Host) | 00:02:15 to 00:02:26
Teen is a queer guy on the show, which I didn't realise, but I. Okay. But it's not the driving force, which I think is really great. It's really nice to just have these positive queer characters. How do we know teen is queer?

Archie (Host) | 00:02:26 to 00:02:36
We don't. I wouldn't have picked that up. Besides, are we just assuming because the actor was played queer? Well, this comes from the person who plays the character. They said that teen is queer.

Archie (Host) | 00:02:36 to 00:02:49
So maybe there's something later on in the series that might allude to that. It's also been described as the gayest Marvel project ever. So Katherine Hahn. Is it Hahn or hain? H a h n?

Archie (Host) | 00:02:49 to 00:03:12
Like Han the druid Hahn. So in an interview, someone told Kathryn Hahn that Agatha all along has been described as the gayest Marvel project ever. And in response, she said, what is the most exciting thing about it is that's not exactly what it's about. It's so normalised. It's not the first Marvel film to do such things.

Archie (Host) | 00:03:12 to 00:03:20
No, because doctor strange America Chavez. So because she's the first proper out. Out. Besides Valkyrie. Yeah.

Katie (Host) | 00:03:20 to 00:03:28
Yeah. Okay. I mean, I think the representation is there. I mean, this is probably the first time we're gonna have maybe a kiss. Who knows?

Katie (Host) | 00:03:28 to 00:03:38
I'm vying for it. I hope so. I think they're both very hot individuals, so why not? I mean, I like the queerness that's happening with Marvel. I think it's cool.

Archie (Host) | 00:03:38 to 00:03:44
It's just normalising it. Yeah, it is just normalising it. It's nothing queerbaiting. It is just normalising. Yeah.

Archie (Host) | 00:03:44 to 00:03:52
It's just representation. I think it's representation. And. Yeah, I was just interested to see. What your point also, like, what makes a movie the gayest movie around?

Archie (Host) | 00:03:52 to 00:04:07
The gayest project. But it's funny still in that, I. Think, because it's such a measure, I think it's such a small cast. Okay, so there's 27 people in the whole cast. And if potentially three of them are gay, that is a high percentage in most.

Katie (Host) | 00:04:07 to 00:04:19
Hmm. Projects. Okay, sure. We'll go by that. If you think about it as well with the other witches, you know, the way that they responded kind of like, oh, maybe there is some queerness to them as well.

Archie (Host) | 00:04:19 to 00:04:30
Cause remember, these. These witches are like 200 or 300 years old. They don't care about gender. No, that's so true. And like you were mentioning when we were watching, because we are up to the most current season.

Katie (Host) | 00:04:30 to 00:04:47
Sorry, most current episode. We always are. We're marvel fans. So, like, watching the most recent episode, I gotta say, it was really nice. Even just like, the subtle mentions of, like, one female presenting person saying, like, reflecting on another female presenting person be like, yeah, she's hot.

Katie (Host) | 00:04:47 to 00:04:56
And just in a very, like, normal way. That is the normal way that happens in real life. Yeah, I agree. Yeah. I mean, we're not vying for, like, gay sex.

Katie (Host) | 00:04:56 to 00:05:08
No, we're just vying for normal attraction. Just representation. Yeah. So if you haven't watched Agatha all along yet. Go ahead and have a watch and then let us know how you I love it.

Katie (Host) | 00:05:08 to 00:05:40
Yeah, I reckon her and Scarlet witch would make a really hot couple. Anyway, we are talking on this episode, social transition. This episode was suggested by one of our lovely listeners and they wrote, I would love to hear more from Archie about social transitioning. There's a huge focus in the world on medical transition, which is so out of reach for a huge number of trans people. I feel a lot of shame and embarrassment telling people I'm trans or that I prefer they them pronouns when I can't access any healthcare for this.

Archie (Host) | 00:05:40 to 00:06:04
It also feels like the biggest weight is off my shoulders when I do tell people and they accept it or ask good questions about it, etcetera. But so many people don't know what to say so they just ignore the issue. It would be great to hear other experiences or anything about coming out to family, etcetera. So just a quick trigger warning. This episode discusses topics related to social transitioning.

Archie (Host) | 00:06:04 to 00:06:27
We touch on feelings of shame, rejection. There are also discussions about suicide, self harm and surgeries. If you find these topics triggering, please take care of yourself while listening. So today we're going to talk about something that does not get talked about as much, but is still an important step for many transgender and non binary individuals. Social transitioning what is social transitioning?

Archie (Host) | 00:06:27 to 00:07:12
If you were to tell someone or describe to someone what is social transitioning, what would you say? I would say that it's about reflecting how you feel authentically, internally into your life externally. So it's taking those small steps, whatever those steps might be, into reflecting who you are, whether that be acting certain ways or like not. Masking, I should really say no longer masking in situations reflecting how you want to dress, being the person that you want to be, and making the choices that you potentially might have not felt comfortable with in the previous Persona that you had. Yeah, yeah, that's pretty good, thanks.

Archie (Host) | 00:07:13 to 00:07:34
To simplify it, social transitioning refers to the non medical steps a person takes to live as their true gender. So it's everything else. This can include things like changing your name, pronouns, clothing, hairstyle, and even how you introduce yourself to others. For some, it's as simple as telling people the gender they identify with. It's important to remember that there's no one right way to transition.

Archie (Host) | 00:07:34 to 00:07:53
It's all about what feels right for you. For many people, social transitioning is an essential part of their journey. It's about asserting your identity in everyday life and being seen and respectful to who you truly are. And while it doesn't involve medical intervention, it's just as significant and a valid part of transitioning as any other. Yeah.

Archie (Host) | 00:07:53 to 00:08:21
So, when you come out as transgender or gender diverse, there's no rulebook you have to follow. It's a personal journey, and you get to decide how much or how little you want to share or change at any given time. The key is taking steps towards being your authentic self, and that can look different for everyone. So my journey is going to look completely different to anybody else. And prior to starting this podcast, and one of the reasons that we've mentioned before why I wanted to start this podcast was I used to get a lot of messages of, how did you know you were transgender?

Archie (Host) | 00:08:21 to 00:08:35
And they used to say, oh, you said something about this. And I also resonate with that. And I'm like, that's great, but I can't tell you. And I've had massive essays sent to me before, and it's like, this is why I think I'm transgender. Do you think I'm transgender?

Archie (Host) | 00:08:35 to 00:08:47
I said, I can't answer that for you. Oh, God. Jeez. So, you know, it's different for everyone. There's, you know, the outward steps, but there's also internal steps that you have to take.

Archie (Host) | 00:08:47 to 00:09:07
Well, you have to internally transition as well. Yeah. Did you ever have a moment that you're just like, today's the day. Today's the day that I'm gonna tell people that this is my new name or tell the people that this is how I want to identify? I think it was a slow process because I first came out as gender fluid.

Katie (Host) | 00:09:07 to 00:09:17
Yeah. And so I think that was a little bit easier. So then I went by they them pronouns rather than she her. Do you remember who the first person you told was? No.

Archie (Host) | 00:09:17 to 00:09:37
I think it might have been Florence, but no. It's funny because it feels like such a big deal. I mean, I don't want to discredit. It is a big deal at that point in time. But if you think about it in your journey of who you've become, even though it was, like, the first step, in essence, it still doesn't.

Katie (Host) | 00:09:37 to 00:09:59
Like, it's not as big as it was. I'm sure it felt really big at that point in time, and it felt really vulnerable, but, like, now looking back on it, you can't even remember who you told, which just shows awesome things. My journey's been very long, so that. That now just seems like a small blip in the part of it, if that makes sense. Yeah.

Archie (Host) | 00:09:59 to 00:10:18
Yeah. And I guess that's the thing to tell people. Is that to mention that even though it feels like a really big step, there are going to be so many more steps along the way that you're going to take. And you should be proud of yourself for every single step that you do take, because it's another more step to be more authentic. How many times can I say step?

Archie (Host) | 00:10:18 to 00:10:33
How many times can you say authentic? It's gonna be a lot. So what does social transitioning actually look like? For those listening at home and who don't know, it could be something as simple as going by different names. So for many, choosing a new name that reflects their gender identity is a powerful step.

Archie (Host) | 00:10:34 to 00:10:55
It's not just about what others call you, it's about claiming an identity that feels right. This can be done legally or informally by asking friends and family to start using your chosen name. And that's what I did at the start. I asked friends and family to start referring to me as my chosen name. And then when I was ready, I did all the legal steps, which is now easier thanks to the recognition the was it?

Archie (Host) | 00:10:55 to 00:11:25
Gender recognition board of WA being abolished. So that is now easier for people here in Western Australia to do that. It could also be the things like using different pronouns, whether you're shifting from he to she, she to they, or any other combination. Things like wearing different clothes, something that makes you feel a bit more affirmed in your gender, changing your hairstyle, how you present yourself, and so on. Other things could be adopting different ways of moving and speaking, which some people do, experimenting with different gender presentations and telling others that you are trans.

Archie (Host) | 00:11:25 to 00:11:37
And then the next step would be the social aspect where you come out to more people. But it's very different for everybody. And those steps don't have to be in that particular order. You can do it in whatever order suits you. Yeah, it's true, isn't it?

Katie (Host) | 00:11:37 to 00:12:00
And I think that it depends. I mean, everyone's path is different, but also it's really different to. It's different from whether you're transitioning and you're a trans man or a trans woman, if you're transitioning as child, because a lot of kids these days with supportive parents don't have to go through that. That worry of, like, what am I going to be called? What am I going to do?

Katie (Host) | 00:12:00 to 00:12:29
They can literally just live as themselves, be whatever they want to be, and then figure it out along the way. Yeah, and have those. That's such a great and empowering thing to have with support, but it also is very different to somebody's journey. Like your journey and trying to pick a name and be like, what name do I resonate with? I mean, to be honest, I, as one of a very indecisive person, if I was transdivid, God forbid I would pick.

Katie (Host) | 00:12:29 to 00:12:49
I know there are people out there that I've followed before who've picked one name and then they've picked another name and they've picked another name and that's fine as well because it's not easy. Yeah. Like, I think. I'm not sure if I mentioned previously we had a family friend who just didn't like her name and changed it five times until she found something that suited her and she felt was the right choice. Yeah.

Katie (Host) | 00:12:49 to 00:12:55
Was she trans or no? Yeah. Happens to cis people too. Exactly. It's just life.

Archie (Host) | 00:12:55 to 00:13:17
So the next thing is challenges of social transitioning. One of the biggest hurdles is often the fear of rejection or not being accepted by those around you. For some, coming out and asking people to respect your new name or pronouns can be met with resistance, misunderstanding, or even hostility. This can be painful and may lead to feelings of isolation. Because I was scared when I first came out, but then everyone was really great.

Archie (Host) | 00:13:17 to 00:13:48
I was actually the most scared, I think, about my uncle and also school. Yeah, those were the. That I was the most scared about. But they were both super warm, welcoming, and made me feel so loved. If you have people who don't support you and you can't have a reasonable conversation with them about what this means and them discrediting you and being disrespectful, in essence, having those kind of people in your lives isn't the best.

Katie (Host) | 00:13:48 to 00:14:10
And sometimes that actually is family. Yeah, that's difficult. That's true. And, like, not saying that this is all like peaches and rainbows, like you were saying. Yeah, sometimes it can be really fucking horrible, and sometimes you might lose people along the way, but in essence, it's weighing the pros and cons of, do you want to live?

Katie (Host) | 00:14:10 to 00:14:24
Who. I mean, you've got one life to live. Do you want to live it as your authentic self or as a shadow of something because you're scared of losing people? What would be the point in getting to the end of it and having regrets that you haven't lived it? Truly, that's where I was getting.

Archie (Host) | 00:14:24 to 00:14:44
I was really starting to regret because I'd always dreamed of the life that I really wanted to live and what my life would look like if I gave into the thoughts and the feelings and how I felt. And, yeah, it got to the point where I can't keep having this as a dream anymore. I've got to make this a reality. And, yeah, that's what happened. There you go.

Archie (Host) | 00:14:44 to 00:14:52
Yeah, but everybody's journey's different. And has your dream come true now? You know it. Having hair on your back. I was not ready for the amount of hair.

Archie (Host) | 00:14:52 to 00:15:06
I was not ready for the amount of hair, but also how quick my nails grow now. Yeah, everything just grows quicker. Hair, nails, everything. And they don't tell you about that. Anyway, another challenge is the process of finding your style and presentation, because you've presented as one way your whole life.

Archie (Host) | 00:15:06 to 00:15:26
And so that's going to be a journey. It's going to feel like those movie montages where you go in and out of dressing rooms trying to find the right thing that fits. And society often imposes strict norms about how different genders should look and behave. And this plays a part in the frustration of trying to find the right gender presentation and style presentation that fits you. There's no right way.

Archie (Host) | 00:15:26 to 00:15:42
There's no right way to look or act. And what matters is that you feel the most comfortable and true to yourself. And it doesn't matter if other people tell you you've got bad style, like, as long as you're happy and you rocket yourself. That's the only thing that matters. There can also be a lot of internal struggles.

Archie (Host) | 00:15:42 to 00:16:02
So that's another challenge. Like dealing with imposter syndrome. Like most people do deal with imposter syndrome, often that comes up is the feeling of not being trans enough because you're not taking certain steps, like, you're not taking the medical steps, but you don't need to take the medical steps to be trans and be trans enough. Well, I mean, it's not like you get to get a medal for being the best trans person. That's not real.

Archie (Host) | 00:16:02 to 00:16:12
No, there's. And there's no such thing as trans enough. No, you are trans enough. Exactly. So social transitioning is about what's right for you, not meeting the expectations of anyone else but yourself.

Katie (Host) | 00:16:12 to 00:16:24
That's it, yeah. What are the benefits of social transitioning? If you were to say some, what would you say the benefits of social transitioning are? Well, definitely mental health. Yep.

Katie (Host) | 00:16:24 to 00:17:01
I mean, all the statistics show that people who are trans, who aren't able to transition in some manner to reflect their authentic selves, have higher risks of depression, suicide, self harm. There's. I mean, it's out there in the statistics. We know that. I think that's the biggest one I think it also creates barriers in relationships, because by you not being able to, I mean, you're always hiding a part of yourself, which means that there's always going to be a part that you can't completely relax in.

Katie (Host) | 00:17:01 to 00:17:36
And that definitely affects relationships. You not being able to give 100% in one. People will know that, oh, yeah, people can gather, and then they just assume that you're hiding something that's more malice or that you're cheating, or that you have another family on this side of the state and all those other kind of things. When you could be trans and be in a happy relationship. I mean, there's a lot of couples on Instagram or TikTok or whatever social medias you follow that have been married to somebody and that individual has transitioned, and their relationship is even better post.

Archie (Host) | 00:17:36 to 00:18:01
The transition, because there's communication, and you're falling in love with the actual authentic version of that human that you fell in love with in the first place. So by the time someone reaches the point of social transition, they've usually known deep down that they're trans for quite a while, just like I did. And when they finally get to step into that truth and be themselves out there in the real world, it's like lifting a heavy weight off your shoulders. That's what it feels like. You don't have to carry this burden anymore.

Archie (Host) | 00:18:01 to 00:18:22
Social transition doesn't just come with a sense of relief and happiness. It can also play a significant role in managing gender dysphoria. For many people, being able to present themselves in a way that feels right can really help alleviate that discomfort of the gender dysphoria. Yeah, I mean, people get dysphoria a lot about a lot of different things with their body in general life. People do.

Katie (Host) | 00:18:22 to 00:18:44
It is what it is, and if you can alleviate those things, it's always going to make you feel better. If you can work on those things to create your mental health to be optimum, then that's going to be awesome. Yeah, I was thinking about that more from, like, a body perspective. I mean, it still reflects, but it's. Just like wearing clothes that you weren't brave enough to wear before, that make you feel confident and that kind of stuff.

Katie (Host) | 00:18:44 to 00:19:01
But that's the thing. We all have these ideas of how we feel about ourselves. There's nothing quite like. I mean, I know it's not just me, but this is how it feels sometimes. But when you're putting something on and you're just like, oh, I feel a little bit too masculine today sometimes I'm just, like, I feel like being more feminine.

Archie (Host) | 00:19:01 to 00:19:15
Yeah. And, like, so what? Why does it matter? Why is this a thing? I've had conversations with people in the past who've said that they feel like the more masculine one in the relationship or they feel like the more feminine one in the relationship.

Katie (Host) | 00:19:15 to 00:19:29
And to be honest, I mean, it doesn't really matter, like, at all. It's all gender norms as a society is created. So, like, really, you do you and whatever feels good. Yeah. And in the same way that if you are trans, you do you.

Katie (Host) | 00:19:29 to 00:19:49
You're not hurting anybody. And that's the thing, is that the only person that you're really actually affecting is yourself. Yes. So anybody else's opinions, as long as they're coming from a good place and nice to hear, but as long as you do the education and get good resources, then. I mean, follow yourself.

Archie (Host) | 00:19:49 to 00:19:53
Yeah. Follow your heart. Follow your heart. Is that the tin man? No.

Katie (Host) | 00:19:53 to 00:20:04
I don't know where that's from. Don't know. 2019 study from the National Library of Medicine looked at trans youth using their chosen names at school and home. And guess what? Just being able to use their name made a huge difference.

Archie (Host) | 00:20:05 to 00:20:33
The study found that a successful social transition can significantly lower the risk of negative mental health and physical health outcomes. In fact, it acted as a protective factor against things like suicide and self harm. It's incredible how something might seem simple like using the right name, but can have such a profound impact on someone who is trans. So the takeaway here is that social transition is not just a personal journey. It's all a matter of health and wellbeing, and we're all about celebrating that journey.

Katie (Host) | 00:20:33 to 00:20:43
Here we are. Are there any risks? I mean, there's always going to be risks to social transitioning. There's going to be the risk that you. It affects your relationships.

Katie (Host) | 00:20:43 to 00:20:59
That's going to be one major risk. And like I said previously, is that good people will stick around you no matter what it is. What it is. You'll grow together. It might take some time for them to come around, but it's not going to be dangerous, which is the most important thing.

Katie (Host) | 00:20:59 to 00:21:19
If you're ever in a situation that you are being open with somebody, be aware. I mean, I hate to say this, but you do have to be aware of who you're telling and kind of look at the red flags and make sure that you're. I'm thinking about the worst case scenario. Yeah. Guys, I catastrophize.

Archie (Host) | 00:21:19 to 00:21:36
Shit. Sometimes it's a trauma response. It is what we do. But it's kind of one of those things that if you're thinking about telling somebody, say, like a very prominent family member of yours who happens to be incredibly volatile, do it in a safe area, do it with support. That is the risk.

Katie (Host) | 00:21:36 to 00:22:12
The others kind of risks that happen are more gonna be discomfort rather than anything like telling people at work. Sometimes there's actually a lot more benefits to being trans at work than not. Because if you're a trans man, I mean, you then get to buy into the delightful world of being a man and don't have to deal with misogyny, and don't have to deal with a constant worry of getting abused and all those other kind of delightful things that women have to think about. So there are benefits there, but there also are going to be people who are derogatory in life. And that is what it is.

Katie (Host) | 00:22:12 to 00:22:28
It's unfortunate. Yeah. That's why we have this podcast. So when I'm talking about risks, some people say that there's danger involved, you know, medical transition and stuff, and they also lump in social transition, and that there's so many risks involved for the kids and that kind of thing. Here's the deal.

Archie (Host) | 00:22:28 to 00:22:42
There's actually no solid scientific evidence to back that up. If someone chose to de transition socially, they might end up losing some money on things like clothes or makeup or whatever that they're not going to use for shit. Makeup's a lot. Yeah. But honestly, the chances of detransition are super low.

Archie (Host) | 00:22:42 to 00:23:00
There was a study in 2022 that looked at 317 kids. So 1.3% of those who socially transitioned later de transitioned within a five year period. It is a very small number. Yeah. And so, like you mentioned, the real risks don't come from the act of transitioning, but from external factors like discrimination.

Archie (Host) | 00:23:00 to 00:23:21
And unfortunately, it's a reality for many trans and gender diverse individuals today. Transphobia can show up in a bunch of ways. It could be things like bullying, rejection from loved ones, or even threats of physical violence. It can also create challenges in getting people and institutions to recognise your gender, assessing appropriate medical care, and facing employment discrimination as well. Now, let's be honest.

Archie (Host) | 00:23:21 to 00:23:45
Dealing with that kind of negativity isn't great and can take a serious toll on someone's mental health and physical health. The important thing is community and support. So having support during your social transition is crucial. Whether it's from friends, families, a therapist, or a community of other trans individuals, or non binary individuals online, having a network of support can make a huge difference. If you're an ally and you're listening.

Archie (Host) | 00:23:45 to 00:24:04
Your role is incredibly important. You guys are super important. Respect someone's name, pronouns and choices about how they present themselves. It's also helpful to be patient and understanding because social transitioning isn't just a fluid journey. It's an ongoing process with ups and downs, peaks and divots, and there may be changes to adjust to along the way.

Archie (Host) | 00:24:04 to 00:24:23
You know, one day an individual may identify as she, he, they, them, he, him, and everybody's journey's different. And to be honest, something that could be not a big deal for you by learning someone's pronouns is a big deal for them. Yes. So maybe just be fucking respectful. And if you're not sure, just call them by their name or ask.

Katie (Host) | 00:24:23 to 00:24:52
Yeah. And if you are thinking about social transitioning, and if you are trans or non binary or gender diverse, find a community where you feel accepted and understood. And that is a massive lifeline, whether it's an LGBTQIA group, an online forum, or just a few close friends who, you know, will always have your back and support you. Having a space where you can be yourself without judgement is invaluable, and it's true. And, like, age isn't a reason for people to not understand transitioning.

Katie (Host) | 00:24:52 to 00:25:09
Just putting that out there is that we know a lot of people who are boomer, age and old. If you can learn an iPhone, you can learn about social transitioning. Oh, God, it's so much easier to learn, isn't it? But, like, that's the whole thing, is that if somebody is trying to make it a hard time, it's not. It's actually very simple.

Katie (Host) | 00:25:09 to 00:25:17
Or if they don't know much about social transitioning, then put them onto the podcast. We'll tell them all about it for you. We'll try. We'll try our best. And, you know, and it's.

Archie (Host) | 00:25:17 to 00:25:53
It's hard because obviously I can only remember from my social transition and I had a great experience, but everybody's experience is not going to be that way. And, you know, our listener did ask about hearing other experiences, and all I could do was turn to Reddit, which. Which is hard because most people were in social transitioning to go to the next step, right, to go to medical transition, but not everybody can get to that part. So it was hard to find stories that kind of was like, I'm just social transitioning. Well, social transitioning means a lot, just not just for trans people, but for non binary people as well.

Archie (Host) | 00:25:53 to 00:26:11
And that's what I'm saying. I can't really share that side unless there is someone listening who would like to share their side of their journey. I can only share from what I could find on Reddit, there wasn't much about non binary or gender diverse people and social transitioning, unfortunately. Yeah. So anyway, I went to Reddit to gather some thoughts and feelings about social transition.

Archie (Host) | 00:26:11 to 00:26:29
So one user writes, I can't help but notice how everyone undermines social transition. A lot of the time when trans people talk about transitioning, they really mean medical transition. When people are out, use other pronouns and names, they will say they are pre transition because they didn't start hormones. And I find it infuriating. I do not live as cis anymore.

Archie (Host) | 00:26:29 to 00:26:54
Name and pronouns change are a core transition step, and it's an important step. Maybe it's because most trans people make their administrative name and sex marker change after starting hormones. I don't know, but people aren't waiting for me to grow a beer to treat me differently just because I am trans. I'm tired of social transition being downplayed as like, a small bonus achievement compared to medical transition. Just curious if anyone else felt that way or, you know, maybe it's just my view of things.

Katie (Host) | 00:26:54 to 00:27:17
How do you feel about that? When I was first transitioning, and a lot of the forums on social media and that kind of stuff, if a transgender individual decided to socially transitioned but didn't want to go the next medical intervention route or hormones or surgery, they were kind of questioned a lot. And she's like, oh, well, are you really trans? And that kind of stuff. And it was very, very confusing.

Archie (Host) | 00:27:17 to 00:27:43
And so I think some of that is still around. With the introduction of non binary and gender diverse people more into the vocabulary and understanding with the LGBTQIA community, I think that has lessened. But it is a shame because you do see transgender individuals online who haven't medically transitioned and who haven't had surgical intervention or what do you call it? Surgical intervention. Yeah.

Archie (Host) | 00:27:43 to 00:28:02
And they get a lot of hate, especially from cis individuals and people who don't understand. But, I mean, I could be wrong as I'm not trans here, wouldn't it? Isn't the more important part of transitioning, the social transitioning, a medical transition, is just a procedure? Yeah. And anybody can have that procedure.

Katie (Host) | 00:28:03 to 00:28:25
In essence, a double mastectomy is held by many people who have breast cancer have other issues. So the procedure itself doesn't mean anything. It's the importance that you put on it, which comes from social transitioning. Yeah. So really, the surgical side of it is just the cherry on top it's.

Archie (Host) | 00:28:25 to 00:28:58
Not all the cupcake, but it's society, right? And if you look at society and when someone is at the beginning of their medical transition, you can already see the hate and confusion from the outside community. So you can see where that kind of stuff can come from. And, you know, you were talking about anybody can have surgical intervention like it was. Steve O was going to have breast augmentation and then he had a conversation by chance, I think the day before or week before with a transgender individual who explained to him why that wasn't appropriate and he decided to not do it anymore, which is great, but up until that point, he was going to have a boob job just cause he could.

Katie (Host) | 00:28:58 to 00:29:22
There are so many different factors to that that I'm like, you're putting yourself through such a risk for just the fun of it. Also to be incredibly poor taste for the whole trans community. Oh, man. Luckily he was able to be educated by that person and so decided to not do that. But anyway, here's some comments from other Reddit users on this post.

Archie (Host) | 00:29:23 to 00:29:45
It felt like I had to medically transition to be taken seriously, partly like other people expect you to medically transition as a test to prove your identity is real, and partly because people just can't wrap their minds around what your gender is unless your physical appearance is what they expect. Another user said, to be honest, I think for me, I tend to undermine it because I was able to go stealth. Pretty. Do you know what stealth means? I'm guessing they were androgynous.

Archie (Host) | 00:29:45 to 00:30:00
Yeah. So they didn't have to, you know, they could say, yep, I am a guy and nobody would question them. Yeah. So I was able to go south pre tea years before I had access to tea. I've never had the misfortune of not passing and it didn't feel like part of my transition, frankly.

Archie (Host) | 00:30:00 to 00:30:15
But just correct. Which sounds a little silly. I think you're right, though. It's very undermined and can be really challenging for some individuals to even begin that first step of social transition. I think people also forget how many risks are associated with every surgery that happens out there.

Katie (Host) | 00:30:16 to 00:30:29
Whether that be a breast augmentation, whether that be a. And I'm not going to get the terminology right, but the bottom surgery in essence, because there is a long pun. Women or men? Men. Okay.

Archie (Host) | 00:30:29 to 00:30:34
Phalloplasty. Thank you very much. I'm going to talk a bit about that later. Yeah, I've forgotten. Keep on going.

Katie (Host) | 00:30:34 to 00:30:50
Thanks, love. Another user. This one's a bit long. I think a lot of it is that we're really just now coming to the understanding that being trans doesn't require medical transitioning. There's always been a lot of red tape created by cis society telling us how and when our identities become acceptable.

Archie (Host) | 00:30:50 to 00:31:14
It used to be really common to have to live as a man for x number of years in order to medically transition. And those rules still exist in some places, but then you wouldn't be allowed to legally transition until you went on t and had both top and bottom surgery. Again, those rules still apply in some places. We as a trans people had to conform to those rules, so we started to see ourselves through them. Now all that is changing, but changing our mindset is slow going.

Archie (Host) | 00:31:14 to 00:31:31
Transmedicalism is no longer seen as the acceptable position to take. But it's hard to fully let go of those beliefs when we look at ourselves. Personally, I kind of feel like I've always been somewhat socially transitioned. I've always preferred short hair and masculine clothes. I've always been able to pass, although I don't pass as an adult.

Archie (Host) | 00:31:31 to 00:31:41
So for me, socially transitioning didn't change anything. But getting top surgery did. I mean, not socially. Nobody really noticed the surgery results unless my shirt is off. But it did change how I felt about my body.

Archie (Host) | 00:31:41 to 00:32:14
But that's just me. I mean, the other factor to it as well is if you're binding. Binding in itself is a major health hazard, especially with how some people don't have access to proper binding garments and sometimes can use inappropriate things, which can lead due to, in cases of like, respiratory depression, you can end up having long term pneumonias, consolidation in the bottom of your lungs because you're actually not breathing properly. There's so many different factors to it that is actually quite dangerous. Yeah.

Archie (Host) | 00:32:14 to 00:32:29
When I used to bind, there were sometimes, if I was going out and stuff, I'd get to the point where, like, I couldn't breathe. And it was, yeah, hyperventilating, kind of couldn't breathe. It's not fun. No, I can't imagine so. So another user writes, social transition felt humiliating for me.

Archie (Host) | 00:32:29 to 00:32:45
Even though most of the people I've come out to have been super supportive. I was cringing internally the whole time. It helps to have a few people you can talk to about those feelings. I can tell my closest friends just about anything. And being able to express those thoughts made me feel a little less lonely.

Archie (Host) | 00:32:45 to 00:33:09
Plus, we could laugh at the cringey stuff together, which felt sort of empowering. Starting tea really helped me get over some of the cringe. Once my voice dropped and I was passing to strangers, I no longer felt like I was asking too much of people to refer to me as male. So, yeah, if you noticed, most of those stories were from trans men. I didn't really see much about social transition and trans women, but it could just be the Reddit forums the way it's targeting it to me.

Archie (Host) | 00:33:09 to 00:33:44
But, yeah, I don't know. I think there's probably a lot to say with that as well. Is that, oh, I think that even if you were, even if it was a trans woman looking for these kind of things, I think it would be quite difficult to find. Yeah, just because society accepts, and I'm making a vast generalisation, just because I know how things are from being out in the world, but they're a lot more understanding of trans men than they are of trans women. And trans women's journey can be a lot more difficult and there can be a lot more hate and persecution towards them than, I mean, anybody else in the queer community.

Katie (Host) | 00:33:44 to 00:34:06
It's really fucking horrible, the amount of deaths that we've had. And it's actually, the other thing I noticed in those stories is most of those people had been on testosterone. Yes, you can transition without having hormone replacement therapy as well. With all the threads, it was all about social transition, then continuing to medical transition. I couldn't find any that were just purely social transition.

Archie (Host) | 00:34:07 to 00:34:12
Maybe they had. Don't go to Reddit. Maybe it's not. Maybe those people actually have lives. Yeah, maybe.

Archie (Host) | 00:34:12 to 00:34:50
But if you are listening and you have socially transitioned without medical transition, and you don't want any medical transition in the future, and you'd like to share your story, get in contact with us or send us a voice note on Instagram or gmail and let us know your story and we'll share it in one of our episodes. Yeah. So one of the main reasons I find that people or individuals socially transition without the medical transition is the costs. For instance, in Pennsylvania, the Philadelphia Centre for Transgender Surgery provides some pretty eye opening cost estimates for different procedures. Transitioning from male to female can run you about $140,450.

Archie (Host) | 00:34:50 to 00:35:00
And this is us. 40,100. 40,450. Oh God. While transitioning from female to male is estimated at 124,400.

Archie (Host) | 00:35:00 to 00:35:21
But these figures will take into consideration potential costs for things like anaesthesia, hospital stays, and all the surgeries someone might want. Not what they're going to get, but all the different surgeries and what they. Need during the transition. Speaking of surgeries, let's chat about top surgery for a moment. This procedure, which can either masculinise or feminise the chest is no small expense either.

Archie (Host) | 00:35:21 to 00:36:00
Doctor Medalli from Cleveland Plastic surgery estimates that top surgery can cost between 7000 $508,500, which is a hefty price tag, especially if you don't have a lot of support or a lot of financial support. Yeah, and we can't forget about hormone replacement therapy, or HRT, as some people refer to it, which can add another layer of costs depending on the individual's needs. And, you know, things like testing or blood works panels, hormone panels, all that kind of stuff can add up to dollar 800. And on top of that, you're looking at monthly costs as well, ranging from 40 to 400 for the hormone prescription themselves, depending on what country you're from. Yeah, true.

Katie (Host) | 00:36:00 to 00:36:29
And like a lot of these surgeries might just note, be a one off surgery. They might have to happen a couple of times, like your top surgery had to. Sometimes there are minute details that need to be changed. Sometimes it's staged approaches. So, like, sometimes with trans women, they have to have, if they're wanting to have breasts that are quite large, then they might have to have a smaller area made first and have a smaller cup size first off, and then work towards a larger breast size.

Katie (Host) | 00:36:29 to 00:36:45
So there are, like, it's not just one surgery. There are ongoing costs and ongoing follow up appointments that you need to do. And it's not just a very simple, oh, we'll fix your leg and then you'll be great. Like, it's. It's a lot of different things.

Archie (Host) | 00:36:45 to 00:37:01
And yet with my surgery, I was only expecting one. But obviously, the elasticity of my skin around there was a lot more elastic than he first expected. And also because I think I put on a little bit weight since from the first bit, so that didn't help. So then, you know, there was that unexpected cost. My surgeon waived all his fees.

Archie (Host) | 00:37:01 to 00:37:15
It was just the anaesthetic that I had to pay for. And you never know how your body's going to react to a surgery as well. Sometimes things won't work out exactly how you want them to. And it just depends. It's the cost, something, whatever.

Archie (Host) | 00:37:15 to 00:37:32
So, as you can see, the financial aspect of transitioning is something that many people have to navigate. And that is one of the reasons why some transgender individuals decide to socially transition. And for some as well, they just say, hey, I want to socially transition, and this is all I need. Everybody's journey is different. And that's okay.

Archie (Host) | 00:37:32 to 00:37:59
You don't have to fit into a box. But who do want to medically transition, sometimes they have to socially transition longer. And it's things like how much everything costs, like going to your psych for the first thing, getting your dysphoria, a gender dysphoria diagnosis, and all the other things that may come down the track, complications, etcetera. And that can be incredibly frustrating. While we're on this topic, let's look at some of the possible surgeries that you could have as a trans man or a trans woman.

Archie (Host) | 00:37:59 to 00:38:14
Because we haven't spoken about these before. Let's kick it off. So this is from transhub.org. and there's some great resources on there for the different surgeries for both FTM, so female to male and MTF, male to female surgery. So first one, most common is top surgery.

Archie (Host) | 00:38:14 to 00:38:28
There are several surgical options available, and the choice really depends on what works best for your body. And the reason why I want to talk about this is I've actually never spoke about the different types of top surgery. Yes. So the most common one. Do you know what the most common one is or what it's called?

Katie (Host) | 00:38:29 to 00:38:38
Good question. I actually don't know. So it is a thing called double incision top surgery with nipple grafts. So that's where you see the scars. Like I have, like directly across.

Archie (Host) | 00:38:38 to 00:38:54
Yeah. So that's the second one that I had. So the double incision top surgery. This is a popular choice, especially for those with larger chests, where the surgeon makes two horizontal incisions and removes breast tissue and relocates the nipple to a more masculine position. If you're a youtuber, it's a very intriguing surgery.

Katie (Host) | 00:38:54 to 00:39:12
You can't actually just take off nipples and put them back on because they die. So you actually leave the nipple stalk. Gosh, it is so interesting. Yeah. And so they like, cut away all the rest of the tissue and then cut away just to this island of nipple with its little stalk and then have to refigure out and.

Katie (Host) | 00:39:13 to 00:39:26
Oh, site art. It's very interesting. And then the next one is periaola top surgery. So this technique involves making a decision around the areola, which can help minimise scarring and is often used for those with smaller chests. So you kind of bring in the scars around.

Archie (Host) | 00:39:26 to 00:39:45
Then there's keyhole top surgery. So this procedure is typically only recommended for people with very small chests and tight chest skin. And no excess skin is removed during keyhole top surgery. So a few people are good candidates. It's either, I think that's where they do a little cut on either side, like just along the ribs of they just kind of like go in and they just get the breast tissue out.

Archie (Host) | 00:39:45 to 00:39:58
Yeah, but, yeah. And then there's something called inverted t top surgery. So similar to double incision top surgery, but the nipple is reduced in size and repositioned by doing an additional vertical incision from the bottom of the areola to the horizontal incision. Yeah. Upside down.

Archie (Host) | 00:39:58 to 00:40:12
T this surgery, the nipple stalk and nerves are not severed. So that's an interesting one. So they just kind of move it. Yeah. And then the no nipple top surgery, which is becoming a lot more popular because with the double incision top surgery with nipple grafts, there is a high risk.

Archie (Host) | 00:40:12 to 00:40:25
I think it's 50% of your nipples. Dying and your nipples will fall off if they die. Yes. So no nipple tip surgery. This procedure involves removing the entirety of the nipple and areola from the chest, followed by 3d tattooing of the nipple if desired.

Archie (Host) | 00:40:25 to 00:40:36
But not everybody does go down that route. And note that the tattoo may require touching up. Have we ever told your nipple story? No, we're not going to tell my nipple story. For me personally, I started with the hemiaolar top surgery.

Archie (Host) | 00:40:36 to 00:40:52
So it's similar to the periaola where you go under the. The nipple and then you kind of just. Instead of doing the whole way, mine was just the lower bottom, so kind of like a half moon shape. And then later I got the double incision top surgery. Nipple grafts was not what I expected, all the steps, but it was part of my journey.

Archie (Host) | 00:40:52 to 00:41:15
So let's talk about costs. So they said it was like 7500 to 8500 in the US. In Australia, depending on what surgeon you go to, you can expect to pay anywhere between 4000 to 18,000 out of pocket. So that's pretty wide range. And some surgeons, unlike the one that I go to, if you do need revisions, they will make you pay out of pocket.

Archie (Host) | 00:41:15 to 00:41:28
So, yeah. Moving on to genital reconfiguration surgery, or also known as GRS. First up, let's have a look at vaginoplasty. Yes. This procedure is all about surgically creating a vagina and vulva using existing tissue from your own body.

Archie (Host) | 00:41:28 to 00:41:48
Depending on the techniques used, the tissue can come from different donor sites, which is pretty fascinating. Yeah. Vagina plastic can set you back anywhere from 8000 to a whopping 30,000 out of pocket. Here in Australia, sometimes individuals go overseas cause it is a lot cheaper. But then you've also got the added expenses of travel, insurance, that kind of stuff.

Archie (Host) | 00:41:49 to 00:42:39
So it's worth noting that some private health insurers will cover parts of it and some won't, or cover parts of the costs. And the reason that it is so expensive is it's a very extensive surgery. You're dealing not just with creating a vaginal cavity and the outside meatus, but you're also dealing with the urethra, which is such an intricate thing to deal with, because if you don't like, if you fuck it up, then you're going to either have a chronic Utis, you're going to have issues that banking up of a urinary obstruction and it could lead to kidney failure, in essence, which is why these kind of surgeries have to be done appropriately by professionals who are very seasoned professionals and understand what needs to happen. And no, you can't tell the difference. I've never seen it, but apparently, yeah, I have.

Katie (Host) | 00:42:39 to 00:42:57
I've had patients who have. Yeah. The thing is, I wouldn't have known they were trans until they told me that they were trans and I had to put a catheter in them. So, I mean, in essence, you've got the best looking downstairs because. Designer, designer, designer.

Katie (Host) | 00:42:57 to 00:43:26
Exactly. Another one is Volvo plasti, sometimes referred to as a shallow depth vaginoplasty or zero depth vaginoplasty, an alternative that focuses on creating a vulva with little to no vaginal canal. Like vaginoplasty, the tissue used can come from various donor sites. Then for trans men particularly, there is phalloplasty, which is the procedure that surgically creates a penis or phallus using existing tissue. This often includes reconstructing the urethra so you can urinate standing up, which is a big consideration for many.

Archie (Host) | 00:43:27 to 00:43:38
Phalloplasty can also involve other procedures like hysterectomy ophorectomy or vagina ophorectomy. Oophorectomy, thank you. Or vagina. Vaginectomy. Vaginectomy.

Archie (Host) | 00:43:39 to 00:43:51
Vaginectomy, thank you. Vaginectomy. Now, when it comes to costs, there is another hefty price tag. Do you want to have a guess? If we're looking at vaginoplasty was between 8000 to 30,000, what do we reckon with phalloplasty?

Katie (Host) | 00:43:51 to 00:44:15
Phalloplasty would be more expensive because you're going to deal with both a urological team, so you would have to deal with urology as well as you'll have to deal with potentially, a plastics team as well to get the skin flat from somewhere else. So I would say maybe like 30 to 40 grand. 50,000 to 80,000? Oh, I've seen people online say they've gone upwards of 125,000 in Australia. Yep.

Katie (Host) | 00:44:15 to 00:44:22
Wow. There's nowhere in Perth that does it. It's all over east. I'm kind of not surprised, though. It's probably not gonna be just one surgery.

Katie (Host) | 00:44:22 to 00:44:33
It will be multiple surgeries. Depending on what they want in the end. Yes. So, depending on what the individual wants, whether it is to be used for pleasure, whether it's to be used just for urination, et cetera. Four to five stages.

Katie (Host) | 00:44:34 to 00:44:49
Cause there are certain ways. Cause if you think about it, you can't. At the moment in healthcare, we can't actually stimulate erections. So when they actually create the phallus, the penis itself, do you know what. They create the penis out of?

Katie (Host) | 00:44:49 to 00:45:02
Yeah, they generally created part of a muscle from either your thigh or your forearm. And do you know why they create it from your forearm? Because then it can actually, like, retract. It has the same kind of muscle. No.

Katie (Host) | 00:45:02 to 00:45:09
Why? There's actually the most nerve endings in your arms. Yeah, very interesting. So that's why. So if you want to feel pleasure sensation, the sensation's there.

Katie (Host) | 00:45:09 to 00:45:38
Oh, there you go. That's very interesting. So if you just have it as an appendage to pass urine on in and then have it as a. If you're just wanting it as a genital that you can urinate with perfectly fine, if you're wanting to actually have intercourse with it, with it being erect, you would have to have a pump that you put into it that has a little kind of balloon device that you can push and it creates air or fluid, I think. Yeah.

Katie (Host) | 00:45:38 to 00:45:44
In the same way that car's oil injectors actually made. So the pump. And it goes into your abdomen. Yeah. And with the fluid.

Archie (Host) | 00:45:44 to 00:45:53
And then they. Yeah. So in one of the testes is the pump, and then you'd pump that and then to decrease it. What they do with cis men, I've seen it. Yeah, they do it.

Archie (Host) | 00:45:53 to 00:46:04
It's exactly what they do with cis men who have erectile dysfunction. Yeah, to an extent. There is a lot of other complications. With that itself, with phalloplasty as well. There's several donor sites.

Archie (Host) | 00:46:04 to 00:46:17
The first preference is your arms, but it leaves a nasty scar. Like a very nasty scar. Well, if you think about it, you're taking a whole chunk of muscle as well as the skin on top of it. And so there's a lot of physio involved with that as well. Yeah.

Archie (Host) | 00:46:17 to 00:46:22
Another one is from your thigh. Yeah. And then another one is your abdomen. Oh, I've never seen that. Yeah.

Archie (Host) | 00:46:22 to 00:46:48
So the abdomen, if you didn't want phalloplasty, there's also meteoid plasti, where it's just creating the phallus out of your already your genitals that are pre existing. And with the meteoroplasty, again, you can have with urethra lengthening and that kind of stuff, or not, you can just have it there. So there are lots of different surgeries and they are very, very expensive. So you can see why someone may decide just to socially transition because it may be well out of their reach. It's true.

Katie (Host) | 00:46:49 to 00:47:05
It's got to be pros and cons as well, isn't it? Tips for a positive social transition let's end on that. So if you're considering or currently going through a social transition, here's a few tips that might help you along the way. First, take it at your own pace. There's no rush or timeline you need to follow.

Archie (Host) | 00:47:05 to 00:47:19
Do what feels right for you when it feels right for you. Second, practise self care. This is the most important. Make sure you're taking time to care for yourself, whether that's through hobbies, relaxation or seeking out supportive people. Make sure that you practise self care.

Archie (Host) | 00:47:20 to 00:47:34
Third, don't be afraid to experiment. Your transition might involve trying out different names, pronouns or styles. Until you find what fits, it's okay to change your mind or adjust along the way. And finally, reach out for your support. There's no shame in asking for help or leaning on others.

Archie (Host) | 00:47:34 to 00:47:49
Your journey is yours, but you don't have to walk it alone. That's a lovely parting comment. So that has been social transition. I hope that you learnt something new from today's episode. And if you really like this episode or any other episodes we've got up, don't forget to rate, review and subscribe.

Katie (Host) | 00:47:50 to 00:48:08
Give us a five star. We love a good five star. It helps us. So whether you guys realise it or not, but every time you download one of our episodes, every time you listen, every time you like and give us a five star, you actually push us out to more listeners and it helps us reach a bigger audience. And don't forget, we are going to be at fair day, so you can come and say hello.

Katie (Host) | 00:48:08 to 00:48:17
Oh, yeah, we're going to be at fair day. Yes, fair day in Perth. Exactly. And there's a lot of fun things that we've made that we're going to sell. Come down and chat to us.

Katie (Host) | 00:48:17 to 00:48:29
We're also going to have some of our family and friends there as well. So feel free to say hey to them. They're a lovely bunch. We've got great people around us, and we would love to chat and see you and support you as much as you support us. Yes, exactly.

Archie (Host) | 00:48:29 to 00:48:49
And if you have any ideas or suggestions for any future episodes, just like our listener did today, you can send us a message on letsbeperfectlyqueeerpodmail.com, or send us a direct message, because I'm better at replying to the direct messages on instagram. Yay. Yeah. So thank you. And until next time, I hope that.

Katie (Host) | 00:48:49 to 00:48:51
We have been perfectly queer.

Archie (Host) | 00:49:00 to 00:49:09
Let's be perfectly queer. Do you know what? This is a callback that nobody's gonna get. This is for Mitch. Yep.

Katie (Host) | 00:49:09 to 00:49:23
All those times go when I said, guess what's in my pocket? And nobody guessed, and one of our friends came up to us because it was really entertaining. He came up to me, and he's just like, by the way, what was in your pocket? And I had to. Honestly, I had to get Archie to go through.

Archie (Host) | 00:49:23 to 00:49:30
Oh, I already knew. Oh, you already knew? I didn't hear back. I had to ask Archie because I was just, like, totally gone from my mind. What was in my pocket was a sock.

Katie (Host) | 00:49:30 to 00:49:44
And Mitch got it. And Mitch gets the award for very good listener. Everyone and anybody else who's listening, every now and then, I'm gonna put these random facts out there, and you will get prizes. It will be great. Yeah.

Katie (Host) | 00:49:44 to 00:49:45
It'll be a magical time.