Lavender Scare: A Dark Tale of Paranoia and Queer Persecution

CONTENT WARNING: This episode touches on the topic of suicide. Please listen with care, and remember to prioritise your well-being.

Welcome to "Let's Be Perfectly Queer," In today's episode we talk about the Lavender Scare, a dark and twisted story from the depths of American history. Have you ever heard of it? If not, you're in for a mind-blowing journey. 

Picture this: the 1950s, Washington, DC, and an underground power flowing through the halls of government. But we're not talking about superheroes here, we're talking about supervillains fueled by paranoia and fear of homosexuals infiltrating the government. This was the Lavender Scare. 

President Dwight D. Eisenhower even signed an executive order labeling homosexuals as a security risk. Can you believe it? Lives were shattered, careers were destroyed, all because of fear and discrimination. 

Join us as we delve into the stories of those affected and explore the parallels between the Lavender Scare and present-day injustices. 

Discrimination and hatred still persist, but through knowledge and progress, we can strive for a more inclusive and accepting future. So, join us now as we unlock the secrets of the Lavender Scare and shine a light on a dark chapter in queer history.

Also if you want to be a part of our podcast outro, send us a voice note saying "Perfectly Queer" in your language. Together, let's create a world where being Queer is celebrated, not feared. Let's be Perfectly Queer!

Topics Discussed:

- Kamala Harris and the potential for LGBTQ+ progress

- The Lavender Scare: history, key players, and impact

- LGBTQ+ discrimination and parallels with the present day

Entities Mentioned:

- Kamala Harris

- Senator Joseph McCarthy

- Roy Cohn

- David K Johnson

- Eleanor Roosevelt

Transcript

Podcast: Let's Be Perfectly Queer

Episode Title: What Is The Lavender Scare?

Host(s): Katie, Archie

Guest(s): 

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Katie (Host) | 00:00:04 to 00:00:14
Welcome to let's be perfectly queer, a. Queer podcast, creating space to talk about all things queer. My name is Archie. And I'm Katie. And we are your hosts.

Archie (Host) | 00:00:14 to 00:00:36
Questions of how you identify, seeking answers to clarify whether you're queen or somewhere in between. Let's be perfectly queer. So what are we talking about today? Oh, so today we've got a topic that comes to us from James, one of our bright, talking about the Cavendish scare. The Cavenda.

Katie (Host) | 00:00:36 to 00:00:46
Yep. The idea of doing the Cavendish. What the fuck are we doing? I don't know where my brain's at. I shouldn't have just had coffee as well.

Archie (Host) | 00:00:46 to 00:00:55
I just finished my coffee. 624 at night. This is on having a memory. Like I siv. Anyone out there makes a coffee at, like, 11:00 and then you find it later on.

Archie (Host) | 00:00:55 to 00:01:07
And I don't mind drinking cold coffee, but I drunk it at six. And now we're in this predicament and. About to record an episode. Yes. That's not called the Cavendish scare.

Katie (Host) | 00:01:07 to 00:01:14
What's it about? What is this episode about? It's called the Lavender Scare. Yeah. Have you heard anything about the lavender scare?

Katie (Host) | 00:01:14 to 00:01:25
No, I have not. Do you have. If I was holding you over a cliff, do you think you could guess what it was about? It's about something to do with a lavender field. Oh.

Archie (Host) | 00:01:25 to 00:01:34
Remember, I have really, really poor upper body strength, so you better give it a red hot go. I wouldn't be holding you on for very long. Okay. I have no idea. No idea.

Archie (Host) | 00:01:34 to 00:01:41
No idea. Lavenders. Okay, sure. Well, this is like, because it's lavender or something to do with the colour or something of that. I mean, lavender is a colour.

Archie (Host) | 00:01:41 to 00:01:52
That is very true. Okay, so before you go on your tangent and go straight into what the lavender scare is, what have we been up to? Have you been. I've been fine. Yeah?

Archie (Host) | 00:01:52 to 00:01:59
Yep. I've been great. I've been good. Because Camilla is taken over from Joe Biden. Carmela.

Archie (Host) | 00:02:00 to 00:02:06
Carmela. Yeah, Carmela. Do you know what I always think about it being Camilla cabello? Nope. Oh, God.

Archie (Host) | 00:02:06 to 00:02:13
Geez, you've got what? You pigeonholed, don't you? How dare you? It's the first thing that came to my head. I was thinking about Camilla Parker Bowles.

Katie (Host) | 00:02:13 to 00:02:19
I don't know who that is. Oh, she's our queen. Oh, yeah, that's right. Her. Geez, we are two different.

Katie (Host) | 00:02:19 to 00:02:30
Yeah, we're on two different types of. I gotta say, we're two different puppy dogs. Puppy dogs. No, we're not puppy dogs. I guess we have two different things that we find very interesting or different forms of the whatever that, you know.

Archie (Host) | 00:02:30 to 00:02:38
It'S gonna be like, what's on Archie's mind? Camila Cabello. If Kamala Harris does become the president, which would be amazing, we can actually go to Disney World again. Demonstrate. Oh, God.

Archie (Host) | 00:02:38 to 00:02:46
We'll go to Disney World. We'll go to New Orleans. We'll go to New York. Broadway. It's just, uh, it's unfortunately, I'd love.

Archie (Host) | 00:02:46 to 00:02:52
To be on Broadway. Not on. But you can go on Broadway. Good luck with that. In Broadway, but not on.

Archie (Host) | 00:02:52 to 00:03:05
Go to Broadway. Love to go to a Broadway show. Yeah. With everything that we do see over there in the states. And I'm not sure if it is as bad as what you see on social media and stuff, because sometimes social media does, you know, inflate things.

Katie (Host) | 00:03:05 to 00:03:25
But being trans and going to the states is not a really safe place. So unfortunately, it's not on our to do list at the moment. But if Kamala Waharis was to become the first female president and such an awesome. Well, I think an awesome queer advocate, and then it'd be something that we add to our plans. Damn straight.

Archie (Host) | 00:03:25 to 00:03:30
We'd be there. Yeah. With legs on pants. Legs on with what? How does that go there?

Katie (Host) | 00:03:31 to 00:03:37
Bells on. Bells on. Yeah. No, real news that we. Because I haven't looked up anything because been a big few weeks.

Archie (Host) | 00:03:37 to 00:03:44
It's always a big few weeks. Yeah, it's always big, big few weeks. Guys, we're busy. We're just so busy. Does anyone want to be our personal assistant?

Katie (Host) | 00:03:44 to 00:03:51
We wouldn't be paid. No. We could probably pay you in puppy cuddles. Yep. And.

Katie (Host) | 00:03:51 to 00:03:55
And good company. And good company. Yeah. We are good company, aren't we? I think we are.

Archie (Host) | 00:03:55 to 00:04:00
I think we. We bring you along to everything we do. We do go to a lot of social events. That's true. We do have a lot of fun.

Katie (Host) | 00:04:00 to 00:04:11
We do. Yeah, it'd be fun. Yeah. Be our pa, apply at our email address that you can find on all. Of our social platforms, and we'll actually get someone applying.

Archie (Host) | 00:04:11 to 00:04:26
Oh, my God. If we did, just remember, I am prefacing this. We are not paying you, but if you want to come and join us, also, don't be a stalker. But, like, if you want to come join us and be our friend and, like, help us out as our personal assistant. Dan, what would our personal assistant do?

Katie (Host) | 00:04:26 to 00:04:32
What would their role be? Ummdhdemdev. They would. I've got many roles. Yeah.

Archie (Host) | 00:04:32 to 00:04:39
We could be. Have someone who's a researcher, things that take up a lot of our time. Yes. This is a rundown. If you ever want to create a podcast, make sure you've got a researcher.

Archie (Host) | 00:04:39 to 00:04:46
We don't, so good luck to that. That's us. Many, many, many hours. Make sure you've got an editor again. Many, many, many hours.

Katie (Host) | 00:04:46 to 00:04:52
Yes. And then a social media expert. And then someone replying to all of your emails. I'm so sorry for the people who haven't replied to your emails. I love you all.

Archie (Host) | 00:04:52 to 00:05:00
I'm just not in a good mental space at the moment for replying to emails. I get to you. Love you, bye. What else do you need? You need someone to do your audio equipment.

Katie (Host) | 00:05:00 to 00:05:06
Yep. And you need someone to do your. Yeah. So your social media posts and organising that. And then you also need someone to do all the buzzsprout.

Katie (Host) | 00:05:06 to 00:05:24
So you put everything in your pod to buzzsprout, then you have to go through stuff and then you have to create the transcript and then you use that transcript to kind of come up with your quotes and you come that. It's a lot. A 30 minutes episode. We probably do. I'd say so much, especially recently, because I've been doing most of it.

Katie (Host) | 00:05:24 to 00:05:34
I think I'm doing about, on average, eight to 16 hours a fortnight. Yeah. For a 30 minutes episode. Yeah. I feel like no one ever wants to work with us.

Katie (Host) | 00:05:34 to 00:05:41
Yeah. But it is because we. We are a little bit of perfectionist. We want things to sound good. We don't want it to sound half assed when I say we.

Katie (Host) | 00:05:41 to 00:05:56
That's me. I'm very particular with the audio and. And you don't realise how much I cut out. You don't realise all the just random dribbles and the weird mouth noises that Katie makes on the microphone. Excuse me.

Katie (Host) | 00:05:56 to 00:06:05
You make all these weird, like noises. We both do. I feel very attacked right now. Thank you. And I'm glad everyone has heard this.

Archie (Host) | 00:06:05 to 00:06:14
And don't edit it out because this will be my evidence forevermore. Yes, I know. I do. I do edit all the lot of the ums and the breathing and stuff. That takes a long time.

Archie (Host) | 00:06:14 to 00:06:19
A lot of the breathing. Because I breathe. Guys, everyone. Yeah, we both breathe. But the last one wasn't as polished.

Katie (Host) | 00:06:19 to 00:06:26
Cause I'm going for a little bit more of a rustic. Yeah, absolutely. And we'll see how that goes. You're funny. You're funny.

Archie (Host) | 00:06:26 to 00:06:37
I love it. Yeah. What else has been hot gossip, hot news. The Olympics are currently happening, so Australia are currently sitting second on the tally, just behind Japan. But Australia does really good at the start.

Katie (Host) | 00:06:37 to 00:06:53
We always do because we're really good at the swimming and that kind of stuff and the water sports, but we'll see what happens as the rest of it goes on. And there was an incredible game against the Matildas and Zambia that was intense. I only watched the highlights. I did not get up at 03:00 in the morning to watch it. Oh, wait.

Katie (Host) | 00:06:53 to 00:07:03
Well done to everybody who did it. Being a high school teacher and dnsitive dealing with high school kids, I need my sleep. There is no way I'm getting up at 03:00 a.m. to watch. If they were to get through to the finals, then I'd be up.

Katie (Host) | 00:07:03 to 00:07:24
But being a teacher and having grumpy teenagers and then having to deal with that with little sleep, it's not happening. I just like to think if you've got any students actually listening, being like, this is the commitment that you make to them. No, it's not that to them. It's just so that I don't get really angry at them and getting cranky and then they don't want to. Yeah, because I get really cranky when I don't have much sleep.

Archie (Host) | 00:07:24 to 00:07:32
I know. Then the kids get all upset at me because I'm getting cranky at them. And I was like, well, you're making me cranky. But I'm already cranky. And then I've got a base level of cranky, so then anything they do makes me mad.

Archie (Host) | 00:07:32 to 00:07:37
Hmm. So you're basically grouch. Yes. From sesame street when I don't have any sleep. Yes.

Archie (Host) | 00:07:37 to 00:07:44
Yes. So it's better that I have sleep. What do you reckon? What character do you think I'd be from sesame street? What's elmo's friend?

Katie (Host) | 00:07:44 to 00:07:54
Elmo has that friend who's like, elmo. Has lots of friends. You know, elmo is the most popular kid. Elmo's got the friend with the little bows in her hair, one on each. Do I need to google this?

Katie (Host) | 00:07:54 to 00:08:01
You can google it if you like. What's her name? I'm so intrigued. I feel like this is gonna tell us a lot about what you think of me. Zoe.

Archie (Host) | 00:08:01 to 00:08:06
Zoe. You would be zoe. Oh. Why? She's annoying.

Katie (Host) | 00:08:06 to 00:08:13
Is she? I don't really remember her. It's just the. It's the first one I could think of that wasn't, like, one of the main, main ones. Ah.

Archie (Host) | 00:08:13 to 00:08:19
I thought I was gonna be big bird or something like that. I don't know. I've watched sesame street in so long. No. But anyway, we're getting off topic.

Archie (Host) | 00:08:19 to 00:08:26
What is our topic? Yeah, what is our topic today? Our main topic today is gonna be the lavender scare. Yes. Are we ready?

Katie (Host) | 00:08:26 to 00:08:37
Yeah, go into it. Alrighty. Let me tell you about a deep, dark story from the depths of american history. Yep. That involves the queer community, and it's called the lavender scare.

Archie (Host) | 00:08:37 to 00:08:56
So I want to paint a picture for you. It's the 1950s, and while the nation is wrapped up in all its wholesome things of, like, poodle skirts. Rock and roll. The american dream. And there's this dark and twisted underground power that's flowing through the halls of Washington, DC.

Katie (Host) | 00:08:56 to 00:09:08
Like physical power, like legit power? Or is this, like, a metaphorical power, like energy, like electricity? Or is it like, okay, we just watched Marvel. We are not talking about a superhero that's sitting in the halls of DC. Okay?

Archie (Host) | 00:09:09 to 00:09:17
Granted, you are going to meet some supervillains, okay? They do not have any magical powers. Boring. Thank God. Or else we'd be extinct, mate.

Archie (Host) | 00:09:17 to 00:09:36
Anyway, so I want to introduce you to the lavender scare. So our story begins in the backdrop of the cold war, the era of paranoia. Where every shadow seems to hide a queer. No. Where every shadow seems to hide a communist spy.

Archie (Host) | 00:09:36 to 00:09:54
But alongside the red scare, which was also happening at the same time, another fear was brewing. Just stopping here. Do you know what the red scare was? Nope. So the red scare was the fact that everybody was scared in America, that there were communist spies throughout the government and throughout the country itself.

Archie (Host) | 00:09:54 to 00:10:22
And they were really scared of communists because they thought the communists. I have no idea. They were just scared of communists as a granted a thing, because they were like, oh, we don't want to be communists, therefore we're scared of them. They're going to attack us. And so the problem was, is that they thought that apart from communists attacking government, that there was also the fear of homosexuals infiltrating the government, and they called it the lavender scare.

Archie (Host) | 00:10:22 to 00:10:34
So using the lavender as a not so subtle code for homosexuality. Yep. Hence the lavender scare. So, in 1953, President Dwight D. Eisenhower signed the executive order one.

Archie (Host) | 00:10:35 to 00:10:59
So it was executive order 104-501-0450 yep, for all my dyslexics. So, on the surface, this order was about maintaining national security by ensuring federal employees were loyal and of good character. Sounds good, right? But buried within the clauses was the provision that labelled homosexuals as a security risk. Goddamn homosexuals.

Katie (Host) | 00:10:59 to 00:11:14
They are a threat to our country, legit. Ruining our people, killing our kids. Do you want to know the reasoning behind it? I reckon it probably has something to do with procreation no. Funnily enough, not.

Archie (Host) | 00:11:14 to 00:11:36
Okay, so homosexuals, this is the reason, were thought to be morally weak and therefore susceptible to blackmail by soviet spies. As someone whos part of the queer community, you are pretty bloody strong. Do you know why? And it sounds crazy these days, but back then it was taken completely seriously. It was insane.

Archie (Host) | 00:11:36 to 00:11:57
So this is when we enter Senator Joseph McCarthy. So this. The grand inquisitor of this era, so famous for his anti communist witch hunts, McCarthy found a new group to target, which were homosexuals and governments. And his right hand man in his crusade was Roy. Now, I think it's corn.

Archie (Host) | 00:11:57 to 00:12:01
C o h n. I think it's corn. Con. C o h n. Would it be con.

Katie (Host) | 00:12:02 to 00:12:09
Like what about, like what? Like crone. Would it be Cohen? I can't remember because a couple of people are pre pronouncing different ways. I'm gonna say krone.

Archie (Host) | 00:12:09 to 00:12:28
Okay, so he was McCarthy's chief counsel. So they were in cahoots. And here's where it gets a bit scandalous, is that Roy Cohn was actually a closeted homosexual. I was gonna say, like, is one of them gay? Like, do they have this secret love that we don't know about, and that's why they don't want anyone else to have the same power that they do?

Archie (Host) | 00:12:28 to 00:12:44
Absolutely. So he was living this giant double life. So by day he was leading the charge against suspected gay government workers, and then by night he was living in his own little secret. That's crazy. I know, but was he, like, doing it as, like, a negative thing, or was he kind of like an insider?

Archie (Host) | 00:12:44 to 00:12:55
Nope. He wanted to beat them down and eradicate them. So he wanted to beat his own community down and eradicate them. I think that it was later on that he actually ended up coming up with. Okay, so it was like.

Archie (Host) | 00:12:55 to 00:12:59
So internalised homophobia. Yep. That makes sense. Yep. Right.

Archie (Host) | 00:12:59 to 00:13:19
Banger on the money right there. Yes. So one of the main tragic tales about this period was of Lester Hunt. I'm going to tell you about a couple of people's stories because there are some very interesting ones. So, Lester Hunt was a democratic senator from Wyoming, and in 1954, his son was arrested for soliciting an undercover male officer.

Archie (Host) | 00:13:19 to 00:13:59
So McCartney, remember, him and his allies, including Crone, used this incident to blackmail hunt, threatening to expose his son, unless Hunt resigned. Now, that pressure became unbearable. So if you think about it, he potentially may have. May not have known his son was gay, his son may not have actually been gay, but they used whatever evidence they felt like they found to then put the hand down on hunt, and it became so unbearable that Hunt actually took his own life in his Senate office. So it was a tragic, dark moment that highlighted the ruthless tactics that were going on through the love and a scare.

Archie (Host) | 00:13:59 to 00:14:18
There's another story and the story of Frank Khamenei, who was an astronomer working for the US. Sorry, the US army map service. And in 1957, Kami was fired for being gay. So unlike many others. So a lot of people were just fine, and there was nothing that he could do about it.

Archie (Host) | 00:14:18 to 00:14:54
But Kami was one of the first people to actually start fighting back. So he took his case all the way to the Supreme Court, arguing that his dismissal was unjust. And although he lost his case, Kami's courage and persistence then lay the groundwork for future LGBTQ activism. So it was one of those things that people then saw that you could stand up for it, because before that, it was just like, you got arrested by the police, and there was nothing you could do about it. So Hugh was famously coined the slogan Gay is good and became a leading figure in fighting for LGBTQ rights.

Archie (Host) | 00:14:54 to 00:15:15
But the suspicion and the fear spread like wildfire. So imagine walking into a government house every day knowing that one rumour or one whisper could just ruin you. Whether it be true or not, it didn't matter. So people were outed with no real evidence, great suspicion and innuendos. So it was all just suspicion, innuendos, and careers were destroyed overnight.

Archie (Host) | 00:15:15 to 00:15:29
Lives were shattered, and it was like a witch hunt from the personal kind. Yeah. Cause it had nothing to do with what you were doing for work. It was all to do with what your personal life was perceived to be. And since when does what your personal life.

Katie (Host) | 00:15:29 to 00:15:39
Since when does your sexuality actually impact on your work life? It shouldn't, but it does. Cause a communist might get you. That's ridiculous. The Soviets might take your week soviet.

Archie (Host) | 00:15:39 to 00:15:44
The Soviets might take your week ill. That's. Yeah. Who knows? That's ridiculous.

Archie (Host) | 00:15:44 to 00:16:08
Yeah. So there was one particular heart wrenching story, and that was of Clifton Norton, who was a budget analyst from NASA. So, in 1963, Norton was arrested by the police on Morrill's charge, which was code for being caught in a homosexual act. And the details were vague, but that didn't matter. Norton was fired from his job and without any justification, his arrest and immoral act.

Archie (Host) | 00:16:09 to 00:16:45
Norton, unlike many others, decided to fight back again, and he sued the government for wrongful termination and won a landmark case in 1969 that set a precedent that such dismissals were unconstitutional. Norton's victory was a glimmer of hope in an otherwise very bleak landscape. The Whisper campaign. So this is when the Whisper campaign pains became rampant. So, in essence, what a whisper campaign is, just like what we were saying before, is that people would literally say, like, something like a little piece of gossip, and then that would snowball and snowball, and all of a sudden you were homosexual and you needed to be got.

Archie (Host) | 00:16:45 to 00:17:09
Imagine your personal life being dissected and exposed by office gossip. This happened to Arthur van Berg Junior, the son of a prominent senator. So Van Berg was appointed as an administrative assistant to President Eisenhower himself. But whispers about his sexuality quickly ended his career and he was forced to resign. And his promising future in politics were cut short by mere rumours.

Archie (Host) | 00:17:09 to 00:17:38
So if you're thinking about it, nobody was really safe from it. It was very much a campaign to be able to get the people who they wanted to be in power, which mostly were anybody who was associated with McCarthy and his gang, they could get into power because they were then accusing people left, right and centre. And if you got accused, there was nothing that you could do to stand up to it until you had a couple of these people actually being like, this is wrongful. What are you even saying? This has got nothing to do with me.

Katie (Host) | 00:17:38 to 00:18:08
Yeah. So the psychological toll was immense, as you can imagine. Imagine the stress of living a double life and constantly looking over your shoulder. Many people couldn't bear the strain and some people left their jobs voluntarily, hoping to escape the scrutiny, while others weren't so lucky and were publicly humiliated. The fear was so pervasive that even those who weren't gay were afraid to be suspected in the midst of all this turmoil, there were also allies who took great risks to support their friends and colleagues.

Archie (Host) | 00:18:09 to 00:18:26
Such allies were Eleanor Roosevelt. Oh, that's really cool. I know. The former first lady was known for her progressive views, had many close friends who were actually gay. She used her influence to support them whenever she could, even though doing so would put her at odds with the prevailing attitudes of the time.

Archie (Host) | 00:18:27 to 00:19:02
Fast forward to most recent times, and historians like David K Johnson have unearthed these stories, giving voice to those who suffered in silence. And so he's actually got a book, the Lavender Scare. And they documented all the names and all the history behind all these different stories that are brought together. And there were so many stories of people whose lives had been affected by the lavender scare, whether it be them themselves being prosecuted or family members or actually, like we were saying, the suicide attempts that were happening as well, in the knowledge that there didn't have to be any evidence to ruin your life. Yeah.

Archie (Host) | 00:19:02 to 00:19:23
The evidence behind it as well is that even though it could have been wrongful, or, like, even if. Though it could have been that you weren't gay. Their circle. And in the documents, it's quite interesting how they associate mental health with deterioration of the psyche. Very interesting.

Katie (Host) | 00:19:23 to 00:19:52
That is interesting. So some of these documents actually show the thought of how people actually. It's like the evolution of how they thought that homosexuality was. So they looked at what they thought normal heterosexuality was, which was no homosexual experience after the ages of 18 to 20, except under exceptional circumstances. What are these exceptional circumstances?

Archie (Host) | 00:19:52 to 00:20:10
Such a good question. Such a good question. Then occasional homosexuality was usually heterosexual, but dabbles in homosexuality when circumstance permits. And then you've got bisexual. Enjoys and seeks sexual relationships with both sexualities.

Archie (Host) | 00:20:10 to 00:20:22
Overtly homosexual. Sorry, I couldn't help that. Finds sexual gratification only with members of their own sex. And then you also had people. And it shows.

Archie (Host) | 00:20:22 to 00:20:43
It says that the segments do not. So it's basically like, cut into this circle, and it says homosexuality is contained by some degree in all personalities. And it says classes apply to its visible expression in different persons. And then on the opposite side, you've got super normal, which is super normal. Is that what they called it?

Archie (Host) | 00:20:43 to 00:20:55
Completely intolerant of homosexuality. And slugs when propositioned or approached. Slugs? Like punches. Oh, I thought you meant, like slugs.

Katie (Host) | 00:20:55 to 00:21:04
Like a slimy slug. Like, if their proposition, they're gonna get slimy and slug and move to the homosexual side. I was like, what are you talking about? No, literally. But that makes.

Archie (Host) | 00:21:04 to 00:21:14
This is super normal. Wow. Yeah, right. Interesting. And then where it then goes from supernormal, it goes into alcoholics, paranoid states and schizophrenia.

Katie (Host) | 00:21:14 to 00:21:45
Okay. And this is all related to people who are perceived as some facet of homosexual and therefore can be blackmailed by Soviets and therefore are not safe to have in government. Interesting. There's so much I could say about this, especially if you're looking at the world of politics right now and what's happening in the America. Quite interesting that this document, and this time thought that if you were homosexual or part of the queer community, that you had a weakened mental state, I guess.

Katie (Host) | 00:21:45 to 00:22:12
But if we do look at the progression and what's happened in the world and what's happening with LGBTQIA and the understanding now that you realise that. No, like, just because you are queer doesn't mean you are of weak mind. Like. But if you think about it, I totally agree. But if you think about it, how is it so dissimilar to what's happening with the persecution of trans individuals in America presently.

Katie (Host) | 00:22:12 to 00:22:31
Yeah. So the bill and report that came to pass was called employment of homosexuals and other sex perverts in government. There's something there that twigs me and makes me think of how trans people are perceived in America especially. And drag queens. I was about to say drag queens.

Archie (Host) | 00:22:32 to 00:22:41
And it's about that. I hear it too often than not. It's that sexual perversion. And I'm like, what do you even mean by that? What are you scared of?

Katie (Host) | 00:22:41 to 00:23:10
It's not even drag queens. Because remember we spoke about Idaho last episode and about the banning of lgbt themed books because that came under was a sexual. There was some content that came under that was similar to pervert, like sexual pervert kind of thing. I can't remember what it was. This happened in the fifties and we are seeing it happen again where we are in a world where we have so much more knowledge, but it seems like hate in the world is much more powerful than knowledge.

Katie (Host) | 00:23:10 to 00:23:43
And so because there are communities, particularly in the US, and it is creeping into the UK and in Australia, like we've mentioned before, it's like this hate fuels these governments and these councils more than knowledge, and because of this hate, they're just making up blatant lies. And this was happening in the fifties and it's like, it's happening all over again. Absolutely. So, like, people look at this and they're just like, oh, the hysteria. And they look at it with a mix of horror and disbelief and with such blatant discrimination.

Archie (Host) | 00:23:43 to 00:24:11
But this kind of blatant discrimination is still happening in the world today. Yeah. And people are like, oh, this is such a stark reminder of how history and how far we've come and the injustices that happened, but you could still relate. What happened back then is not so dissimilar what happens now with the types of paranoia and hypocrisy and heartbreak in the tales we still see today. Yeah, it's still prevalent.

Katie (Host) | 00:24:11 to 00:24:48
And even though it's not exactly the same, there are so many similarities between this story of the lavender scare and everything that happened back then and what's happening in the world today. Absolutely. And it's. It's crazy because, like, the people who are part of these committees to witch hunt people who were deemed as homosexuals, to think that some of those people were themselves homosexual and, like, there's no. There was no safety, there was no sanctity in any of that, because you wanted so badly to be not seen as homosexual and that's why.

Archie (Host) | 00:24:48 to 00:25:02
And we wonder why that there is still these negative connotations about being queer. It's the fact that these things happen and these things are still happening. It's the hangover effect. It's not gone away. No, it's still there.

Katie (Host) | 00:25:02 to 00:25:24
There's still parts of that community from the 1950s, and there's still parts of that societal values and ideas that never went away. They kind of just went underground and they've re emerged again. I don't know what it is about the world and why people love to hate on lgbt individuals. It's almost like it's what brings some communities together. And I just don't understand.

Katie (Host) | 00:25:24 to 00:25:40
You're not going to get mad at someone who's been a convicted felon. You're not going to get mad at someone who's routed the system, who's committed fraud. But, oh, my gosh, someone wants to marry someone of the same sex, and it's a big deal. It just doesn't make any sense. I just don't get it.

Archie (Host) | 00:25:40 to 00:26:06
It's such a fear mongering, isn't it? It's a fear mongering for something that you may not completely understand or you aren't involved in. And that happens a lot in communities, and it happens a lot through different civilizations, through time and all that kind of stuff that people always find a different entity to hate and that bonds some people together. This is where you have cults and other things and people get untrump. Anyway, excuse me.

Archie (Host) | 00:26:07 to 00:26:18
And I don't want to get cancelled. And bringing people together to hate a common person or a common entity, and you're like, well, what? Why? Why do you hate it? What.

Archie (Host) | 00:26:18 to 00:26:30
What does. And I feel that says more about them because they're not necessarily crusaders. They're not, I can say, not necessarily. They're 100% not crusaders. What do they want with the world?

Archie (Host) | 00:26:30 to 00:26:37
Like, what do they really. What are they trying to achieve? It's like, it's division. They want division and they want this side and that side. And it's.

Katie (Host) | 00:26:37 to 00:26:49
It's such. It wastes so much energy. Just come together and love. Like, it wastes so much energy to hate and get mad and frustrated and cause division. So it's just like, love everyone and that's all that should matter.

Archie (Host) | 00:26:49 to 00:27:20
Yeah, completely. It's kind of crazy. So, like, looking at the figures of how many people this impacted, it was thousands upon thousands. And when the senators put forward their testimony of how many people they claimed just in Washington, DC, themselves were homosexual, they were just saying, that apparently approximately 5000 individuals were homosexual in DC and about 3700 people of those were federal employees. Wow.

Archie (Host) | 00:27:20 to 00:27:26
Guess how they knew that. How did they know that? They didn't. Is this just all stuff that they've made up? Yes.

Katie (Host) | 00:27:26 to 00:27:46
What? Absolutely. So all the figures that they had in their reports were highly speculative and were dramatic and wildly reported by the press. But none of them were coming under any auditing, any questionnaires, anything like it was not against any facts. But they were just like, no.

Archie (Host) | 00:27:46 to 00:28:13
And then people would come out. These government figures would be like, there are this many individuals within our government that we need to have. And they would literally have a list and be like, there are 90 names on my list and we need to find them. That's ridiculous. This is why ladies, gentlemen and everybody in between, we do not look at reports because we've already spoke about this on our previous episode where we looked at transgender athletes and how that reports are not journal articles.

Katie (Host) | 00:28:13 to 00:28:27
They are not scientific documents. Do not believe reports. And this is just another example to not believe reports. This is why evidence based research is so important. Because a lot of reports are just based on people's opinions.

Archie (Host) | 00:28:27 to 00:28:58
And unless you are somebody who actually understands qualitative and quantitative research and what tiers of research and how it has to actually like, not all reports are equal. Not all of them are actually based on case studies or based on the amount of like reviews that you need or peer reviewed that it doesn't mean that it's justified. Just because you can bang your name on a different report and shove it up on something doesn't mean that it's got any evidence behind it or has. Any validity to any argument whatsoever. Completely.

Archie (Host) | 00:28:58 to 00:29:23
But if you're thinking about it, this was people and it probably still happens to this day. Who knows? Conspiracy theorists out there probably does. But the fact is these were government individuals, these were senators, these were people in power who were just blatantly pulling these number out of the air. And therefore, if there's 90 people in this office who are homosexual, you find them for me and you fire them.

Archie (Host) | 00:29:23 to 00:29:37
And if you think about it, it's not just like the initial. Like, imagine somebody. So imagine you got told that there was a paedophile working in your office. Yep. First of all, it's like the game.

Archie (Host) | 00:29:37 to 00:29:40
It's like, who's the werewolf? Yes, yes, yes. Yeah. Hate that game. I hate lying.

Katie (Host) | 00:29:40 to 00:29:45
I'm not very good at it. I'm so bad at it. I just smile all the time and I can't help it. Yeah, I'm really bad at it. So bad.

Archie (Host) | 00:29:45 to 00:29:55
But it's like, first of all, your brain starts going into, who would it be? Yes. Even if it might not be true, your brain's like, let me try and figure out who it is. Correct. And why is it?

Archie (Host) | 00:29:55 to 00:30:11
And then you would never. You would always question every single person in your office. If that had come, say, if that had come from your principal, somebody who you trust as an authority figure, and then all of a sudden, say, some person called Jan. I'm going to use the word Jan. I don't know if there's Jan at your school.

Archie (Host) | 00:30:11 to 00:30:17
It doesn't matter. Who cares? Jan is hypothetical. Guys, don't kill me. So say Jan was just like, hey, I reckon it's Tony.

Archie (Host) | 00:30:18 to 00:30:31
I've seen Tony do some suspicious things. I've seen what he's like around there. And then all of a sudden, everyone's like, tony's the paedophile. Yeah. And then Tony, like, kills himself or Tony gets fired, because they're just like, we've heard that you're a paedophile.

Archie (Host) | 00:30:31 to 00:30:55
And then forevermore Tony's class as a paedophile. And even though it's not true, but that's not true of what's happened. And the upper admin government saying, these people are gay or these people are this way, you are forcing a title on them that is non existent. Yeah. And then because of that, you're causing so much mental health and trauma and harm just because you say it is one way.

Archie (Host) | 00:30:55 to 00:31:27
And also, how are you going to get another job? Because back in the day, it was all word of mouth, of if you actually were a good employee, you're all that kind of stuff. And if you've been brandished with some kind of discriminatory target on your back, you're never going to get another job, you're never going to be able to do it. The reason I say paedophile is because I feel like that is the level of how poorly people thought about people of the queer community back then. So we're looking at what would we consider as in that kind of spot?

Archie (Host) | 00:31:28 to 00:31:38
Yeah, exactly. It's nothing to do. I'm not saying anything. Do not take this and revamp it. Because it was that kind of tarnish, ruining people's lives.

Katie (Host) | 00:31:38 to 00:31:56
Yes. And thank God it moved away from it and different people became in power and people stood up against it. And this is why we will always need revolutions within the queer community. And this is why, again, we will always need prides. This is why we always march, because it wasn't that long ago.

Katie (Host) | 00:31:57 to 00:32:16
When you're looking at it in the grand scheme of things, it wasn't that long ago, and there are still things that are happening today. Yeah, well, I mean, that was my story, my dark story on a little bit of queer history. It's only just the cliff notes. The cliff notes, because I'm not a historian. There is a lot of really great tales out there that people have written.

Archie (Host) | 00:32:16 to 00:32:37
Like I said, there is David K. Johnson, who actually has some great, a book, a great book on it called the Lavender Scare. There's also documentaries about it if you want to learn a little bit more. There's a lot of information about it out there and there's a lot of really cool tales if you want to listen to a really good one. I found dark history by Bailey Sarian was a really great.

Archie (Host) | 00:32:37 to 00:32:44
She did a good topic on it and she makes it very interesting. She's really cool. She fleshes it. I enjoy herself. Yeah.

Archie (Host) | 00:32:44 to 00:32:56
So if you want to hear a bit more about it, do. But that's the lavender scare in essence. It's about lavender. We got scared and everybody else got scared. And everyone else got scared.

Archie (Host) | 00:32:56 to 00:33:03
Yeah, exactly. Interesting. Thanks, James, for letting us know about that topic because I'd never heard of it before. Yes. Had you heard it before?

Katie (Host) | 00:33:03 to 00:33:28
James recommended that we cover, I think. I'd briefly heard about, well, I'd heard about the red scare in history growing up, and so when I kind of looked at it so personally, I hadn't heard of the lavender scare specifically. Yep. But when I heard about the red scare and then, well, when I heard about the red scare and then when I looked into the lavender scare, I'm like, oh, do you know what? Kind of not surprised, but always disappointed.

Katie (Host) | 00:33:28 to 00:33:36
Always disappointed. That's like, it's like history. Not surprised. Disappointed. Very disappointed in the actions, but very interesting.

Archie (Host) | 00:33:36 to 00:33:50
Tell us what you think about the potential of doing a little bit of queer history every now and then. Yeah. And if you have any topics that you'd like us to cover, send us a DM, send us an email and. We'Ll get out to you in the next year. Yeah, I'll get Katie onto all those ones.

Katie (Host) | 00:33:50 to 00:34:13
Oh, take forever. Thank you for listening. I hope you enjoyed it. And if you did enjoy this episode, don't forget to rate, review and subscribe on all your favourite listening platforms, wherever or wherever that may be. And don't forget you can send us an email on lethsbeperfectlyqueerpodmail.com and we'll get back to you in five to twelve business months.

Katie (Host) | 00:34:13 to 00:34:23
Yep, business months. We're better at replying to direct messages like we said last time. But if you want to get in contact with us, please do. Absolutely. And thanks for listening.

Katie (Host) | 00:34:23 to 00:34:34
Yes, thanks for listening all the way through. We appreciate all your support. We see you from all around the world there in the US, in Sweden, we've got listening to Netherlands. I don't think we have Netherlands. I thought we did.

Katie (Host) | 00:34:34 to 00:34:42
Let me cheque. Oh, do you know what would be really cool? What? If. Hey, so call to action guys.

Archie (Host) | 00:34:43 to 00:35:01
If you want to be on one of our outros and say let's be perfectly queer, how do we finish? Until next time, we have been. I hope that we have been perfectly queer. If you want to be part of one of our outros, send us a little voice note that says perfectly queer. Yeah.

Katie (Host) | 00:35:01 to 00:35:15
And we might start to add your voices and a compilation to that, which would be very, very cool. What's your thoughts? I think that's awesome. So if you were to say our second top country besides Australia that listens to our podcast, who do you think it would be? Canada?

Katie (Host) | 00:35:15 to 00:35:20
It is the United States. Ah, yeah. Yay. Hang out there, guys. Australia comes first.

Katie (Host) | 00:35:20 to 00:35:36
So we do have listeners from the United States then followed by United Kingdom, followed by New Zealand, followed by Finland. Hi everyone over there. It's pretty cool. Then Poland, we have Norway, Czechia, Italy and Sweden making up our top countries who listen. Yeah.

Katie (Host) | 00:35:36 to 00:35:46
So thank you very, very much to everyone listening there. So. And someday I will learn. Thank you in every one of those languages. Oh yeah.

Katie (Host) | 00:35:46 to 00:35:56
If you want to say perfectly queer in one of your languages, please do. And we'll add it to the end of our episode. Yeah. So you can see everyone around the world. Oh my gosh, I love you guys.

Katie (Host) | 00:35:56 to 00:36:03
Yeah, that'd be amazing. And it'd be nice to get everybody's voices onto the podcast. And in that note, let's end it.

Katie (Host) | 00:36:05 to 00:36:17
I know that. Bloody hell. Well, until next time, I hope that we have be perfectly queer. Poor football.