The Queer Story of Barbie: Dolls, Fashion and Identity with Frank New

In this episode of "Let's Be Perfectly Queer," I am joined by special guest Frank New, a Queer, non-binary artist and fashion researcher based in New York. Frank, who holds a master's degree in costume studies from New York University, discusses the Queer story of Barbie, being on the second edition cover of "Queer Style" and also touched on the current PhD research they are conducting. 

We explore the history of Queer dolls, including Gay Bob and the accidental release of the "gay Ken" doll by Mattel in 1993. Frank delves into the relationship between Barbie and Queer designers, such as Bob Mackie, Billy Boy and Jeremy Scott, and the impact of Queer fashion on doll design. 

In addition to all the Queer doll history, Frank shares personal stories of their own journey. From childhood experiences of playing with dolls secretly to embracing their passion for fashion without conforming to gender expectations, Frank's story is empowering and inspiring.

And if you want to connect with Frank and learn more about their work, you can find them on Instagram @manyourstyle or visit their website frankienew.com.

Transcript

Podcast: Let's Be Perfectly Queer

Episode Title: Queer Story Of Barbie

Host(s): Archie

Guest(s): Frank

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Archie (Host) | 00:00:00 to 00:00:13
Welcome to let's be perfectly queer, a queer podcast, creating space to talk about all things queer. My name is Archie, and I'm joined by a very special guest, Frank Niu. How you doing? Hello. Great.

Frank (Guest) | 00:00:13 to 00:00:20
How are you? I'm very good. Thank you so much for wanting to jump on the show. Thank you for having me. It's been a while.

Archie (Host) | 00:00:20 to 00:00:47
We've been trying to link this up since I think when we first started, you were one of our first followers, which was really exciting, and we've been trying to link it up since then. Oh, yes. On today's episode, we have here Frank Neu, a queer, non binary, multi hyphenate artist and fashion researcher based in New York. Frank also holds a master of arts in costume studies from New York University. Today, he joins us to talk about the queer story of Barbie being on the second edition cover of Queer Style.

Archie (Host) | 00:00:47 to 00:01:03
And if we have time, we're also going to touch on the current PhD research Frank is conducting. Welcome to the show. Happy to be here. So glad. Firstly, would you like to quickly introduce yourself, your pronouns, and where you would like to start with today's episode?

Frank (Guest) | 00:01:03 to 00:01:33
Sure. So pronouns, I am flexible when it comes to that, so I kind of float, and that's kind of where I prefer to be in that regard. So more about less constriction and just being open to whatever it is in the moment. And, yeah, I think, you know, we can dive into talking about the queer story of Barbie and a little bit of queer doll history, which is where my initial research lies, particularly within my master's research work. Very cool.

Frank (Guest) | 00:01:33 to 00:02:09
And so, yes, so within my master's research work that I did, essentially the angles that I sort of went after. So when I talk about the queer story of Barbie, I am looking at the queer designers that have. Have collaborated for Barbie over the years. So looking at Billy boy, looking at Bob Mackey, Jeremy Scott, the blondes, and sort of telling the story behind the box is really like what I'm looking at. You know, you see this doll in the box, but that's kind of like all you get.

Frank (Guest) | 00:02:09 to 00:03:18
So my research kind of digs deeper and goes behind the box and talks about the relationship that Barbie has to each of these designers and for most of them, like, how Barbie has served as a muse, not just in the particular collaborations, but sort of long before the collaborations came about and how, like, Barbie has been a rather important part in their own sort of design process leading up to their own careers. And so it goes into that. And then I look at queer doll history looking back to Gay Bob, which is the first known gay doll that was released back in 1977. And then there's sort of another queer doll of that sort of nature again into the early nineties. And I talk about the queer dolls that Billy Boy created as well, post Mattel, and looking at the, quote, gay Ken, end quote, that Mattel released back in 1993, which was sort of an accident, if you will.

Frank (Guest) | 00:03:18 to 00:03:50
And I talk about a lot of the pop culture sort of fashion, queer fashion references in regards to that. And so to sort of paint a picture. So what's the first time that you're seeing this, like, sculpted blonde hair? First time you're seeing Ken with an earring. And Ken is wearing a lilac mesh crop top and a lilac pleather jacket vest as well, and a particular round chrome necklace around his neck that appears to be referencing a particular adult object.

Frank (Guest) | 00:03:50 to 00:04:23
And, you know, so it was a complete fiasco, if you will. And the. The doll was sort of banned from the shelves after a certain amount of weeks. But it's sort of known to be the best selling in doll in the history of the brand, sort of off the record, if you will, you know, and a big part of this was sort of gay men going out and buying this doll and sort of, for the first time, seeing sort of themselves in such a commercial product for the first time, you know, that's very cool. Yeah.

Frank (Guest) | 00:04:23 to 00:04:55
And so my research goes into sort of the background of that whole story, and during that time, it's really, in the early nineties is when a lot of queer culture started to infiltrate into mainstream. So, yeah, there are a lot of reasons why. Is it true that with the gay Ken? Because I remember seeing something about this, that some of the designers for Barbie were sent out onto the streets to find kind of looks and that kind of thing, and they stumbled across gay men and they thought, that's a really great look. Or is that something that TikTok has completely lied to me about?

Frank (Guest) | 00:04:55 to 00:05:11
I don't. At that point in time, I don't think that that would be sort of the process. But, I mean, when you look at the. Everything that I've looked at, that's not really sort of the direction that I have found within my research. But considering what he's wearing, who knows?

Frank (Guest) | 00:05:12 to 00:05:39
Mattel really never went into sort of detail, the. The whole point of this particular Ken doll. So there was a survey that was sent out to roughly, like, six year old girls, and Mitchell was sort of trying to figure out Ken's relevance. And, you know, if they should continue with this doll. And the overarching theme of the surveys was, we like Ken, but he needs to be cooler.

Frank (Guest) | 00:05:39 to 00:06:30
So this was their take on sort of making ken cool. But, you know, I mean, you. When you look at this point in time and you look at runways, you look at Gaultier, you look at International Mail, magazine or catalogue and you see all of these things and there are a lot of places where they could have sort of taken this inspiration from not realising that that look was coming up from, like, the street and looking at, you know, sort of the trickle up effect of fashion and, you know, sort of maybe seeing this on like a version of this on a Runway or in something commercial, not realising where that came from. Because if you didn't do your homework, you wouldn't know that look trickled up from the clubs and what queer kids were wearing sort of at the time. So queer kids were cool back in the seventies and nobody knew.

Frank (Guest) | 00:06:31 to 00:07:15
Yeah, you know, in this particular adult accessory was known to be a very big accessory during this time in the early nineties, like nineties, queer club kids were wearing this on backpacks, they were wearing them around their neck on bracelets and things of that. So when you see this necklace on the doll, you can't help but sort of see this. You know, it's like silver and chrome and attached to a thread. So, you know, whereas one denies it. Kind of hard to deny, but I look at that and sort of the commercialism of that compared back to club fashion, specifically queer club fashion in the early nineties and referencing that in regards to sort of the Ken doll.

Frank (Guest) | 00:07:15 to 00:07:59
So that history kind of goes on and then talking about, like the Billy doll of the sort of mid nineties that came out, which was labelled as the first out and proud gaydoll, which is actually on their packaging, but that is not correct. And so I talk a bit about that and how the OG was really was gay Bob, who was sort of a cross between Robert Redbrick, sort of looking anatomically correct as well. But then the Billy doll sort of takes it to the next level. If you're not familiar with the Billy Dahl, highly recommend googling, but it was very over exaggerated in every shape and form. Very much of that sort of gem type of the nineties, if you will, very much in that stereotype.

Frank (Guest) | 00:07:59 to 00:08:39
And so looking at that, and Thomas Finland doll, which sort of came after that, and another sort of very billy doll like in terms of exaggerated features. So looking at that sort of history of gay dolls and then going into the last piece, which is looking at creatable World, which was the first gender neutral doll eye created by Mattel back in 2017. That's so cool. I didn't even know about that. Yes, it came shortly thereafter when Mattel first did the changes with Barbie, with the changing the body types, that came about a year or so after that.

Archie (Host) | 00:08:39 to 00:09:02
That's so cool. I'm sure as well, for young kids, it's nice to see themselves more in dolls. Yes, exactly. I thought the creatable world line was really great. They have, like, interchangeable wigs that you can kind of switch out and less divine features of Barbie, you know, so makes it a little bit shorter in shape and, yeah, I thought they were really great.

Frank (Guest) | 00:09:02 to 00:09:31
And the fashion packs with them were really good. That's so cool. Yeah. So that's kind of a gist of my master's work and sort of what I focused on, looking at Barbie from a queer lens and sort of telling that story, which has never really sort of been captured in that details of research work. I feel that there are sort of bits and parts of kind of what I focused on here and there, but never such a body of work altogether in one piece.

Archie (Host) | 00:09:32 to 00:09:49
That's very cool because the only one I knew about was the one with the mesh and the attachment around their neck. I didn't know that there were more queer identities through Barbie. So that's really cool. Do you reckon that is also, like a bit of Mattel, but also maybe some of the designers trying to have their own influence with the dolls? Oh, absolutely.

Frank (Guest) | 00:09:50 to 00:10:50
Looking at the designers that have designed for Mattel, specifically queer designers, you definitely are getting a piece of that, that person's vision, for sure. Like, when you look at the Bob Mackie dolls that are, like, opulent and over the top, you can look at a Bob Mackie Barbie and know that that's a Bob Mackie Barbie. And the same with, like, Billy boy in the, in the late eighties. And the two dolls that he designed are quintessential Billy Boy when looking at the styling and the fashion very much. And then, you know, you look at the blonde's collaboration and there were even things going around that Mattel created the first, like, drag queen Barbie, which wasn't really the case, but that's sort of what it was being dubbed as the first drag queen Barbie because of the design, which is very much, again, quintessential, the blondes, which is over the top and very detailed and it's a beautiful doll.

Frank (Guest) | 00:10:50 to 00:11:12
That's very cool. I have to look up all these barbies when we finish so I can have a look at it and see the different journey and the different designers and try to guess which one's which, because that's so cool. Yeah. And Billy Boy, who is the very first designer that has his name featured on the package. And I think it was really great that it wasn't just a designer, it was a queer designer.

Frank (Guest) | 00:11:12 to 00:11:33
And they're getting their name on the packaging. Yeah. Because you really don't see people get recognition for it. Yes, exactly. And then with Jeremy Scott, so there was a set that he designed for a Moschino, which was a Ken doll and Barbie set of one of the series of dolls that he released.

Frank (Guest) | 00:11:33 to 00:11:56
And it was a look from a VMA red carpet look of his and another person. And with that particular doll, it was the first time that you're seeing Ken in designer clothing because. Yeah, he's usually kind of like the sidekick. I remember when I grew up, it was always like the beach clothing or like the not as nice or not as glam as Barbie. Yes, exactly.

Frank (Guest) | 00:11:56 to 00:12:12
He's always known as being Barbie's greatest accessory. Yeah. So, yeah, so that's sort of the gist of my research on Queer Barbie and sort of the angles that I look at. That's very cool. Is there anywhere that we can read your research or access your research about Barbie?

Frank (Guest) | 00:12:13 to 00:12:36
Yes. So if you go to my instagram or my website, frankienew.com, i do have my work on there. And if you just message me either through Instagram or send me an email, specifically, I have them password protected for anyone that wants to see it. Feel free to reach out to me, and I can give you that information. Can I just ask with Barbie?

Archie (Host) | 00:12:36 to 00:13:01
Before we move on to the next topic for you, was it fashion first or Barbie first? What love came first? I would say it's probably more Barbie. I definitely was a Barbie fan as a kid, but I was not allowed to play with Barbie. I had sort of the classic toxic masculine ideals of a father who that was completely out of the picture.

Frank (Guest) | 00:13:01 to 00:13:32
So unlike many queer people that I have chatted with, I played with Barbie in secret with a friend down the street. And so that's kind of where my interest in Barbie sort of came from and then kind of left that behind and then came back to it as an adult. Was it a bit freeing coming back to it as an adult? Absolutely. Because I sort of set free those sort of notions in my head that, you know, I was told that boys don't do this, boys don't play with dolls.

Frank (Guest) | 00:13:32 to 00:13:47
Playing would also make you gay. And reaching that point as an adult where, like, none of this holds weight is very free in itself. And. Yeah. And just getting to the point where it's like, if I want to play with dolls or collect dolls, I will do that.

Frank (Guest) | 00:13:47 to 00:13:55
And if someone doesn't like it, I don't really care. Exactly. So you have a collection of the dolls? I do. Is it a lot?

Frank (Guest) | 00:13:56 to 00:14:03
It's a lot. Probably somewhere around 500. 500? That's crazy. Do you have them all on display?

Frank (Guest) | 00:14:03 to 00:14:16
I did. I gave up my apartment a little over a year ago and became a nomad. Oh, that's cool. So everything's in storage, but it's all archived and record it. But, yeah, I do miss kind of seeing them out and about.

Archie (Host) | 00:14:16 to 00:14:25
See? And now Katie can't give me a lot of crap for all my pop vinyls. Cause I don't have anywhere near 500 pop vinyls. Those are great, too. It's fun to collect.

Archie (Host) | 00:14:25 to 00:14:40
I feel like collecting and especially toys and little figurines and stuff. It helps you hold on to that childlike innocence or that inner child inside. And it just brings me, like, this joy. Do you find the same thing just, like, this childlike joy and wonder? Oh, yes, absolutely.

Frank (Guest) | 00:14:41 to 00:14:54
Definitely. And sort of nostalgic to, you know, when I see, like, certain designs that just remind me of childhood and. And, yeah, it's a lovely feeling. And barbie and fashion. Is there touches of that in your art?

Frank (Guest) | 00:14:55 to 00:15:04
For sure? I mean, I. I've worked in fashion for the last 20 years, so it's very. All intertwined. That's very cool.

Archie (Host) | 00:15:04 to 00:15:21
Was there anything else you wanted to chat about, Barbie, before we move on to the very exciting cover? I saw the COVID It looks great. Thank you. No, I think that, you know, there's a lot more, for sure. Like, you know, looking at the history, you know, that I go into within my thesis, so.

Frank (Guest) | 00:15:21 to 00:15:46
Or, you know, anyone that wants to, you know, go further into the details of that and the collaborations, you know, I would definitely recommend checking out my thesis, but, yeah, I feel like it's one of those things that we could probably talk about for hours, and then. This thing will kick me off because we, like, get halfway through talking and then it will finish. So this is the second edition of Queer style. Yeah. How did you get on the COVID.

Frank (Guest) | 00:15:47 to 00:16:12
So it happened by really all about the timing of it all. So the author or one of the authors is my PhD supervisor, Vicky Karamaneh, who's based in New Zealand as well. And Adam, second author, is based in Sydney. And so the week that it happened. I'm not sure exactly the backstory, but whatever was going on with who they were trying to get for the COVID wasn't working out.

Frank (Guest) | 00:16:13 to 00:16:39
And I sent my bio to Vicky, one of the authors, and that photo is in my bio. And it was sort of a thing where I was supposed to send this to her, like, weeks before, and I just forgot. And so I remembered and sent it in that moment. And you know what? I didn't know what was happening with the book cover at that time, and they were facing a deadline of getting this done.

Frank (Guest) | 00:16:39 to 00:16:57
And so I sent her the bio and immediately received a message, basically saying that this has to be the COVID of the book. Like, do you mind? And, you know, to me, like, in my head, I'm like, do I mind? You're like, put me on a cover. On a book that's gonna be published and released internationally.

Frank (Guest) | 00:16:57 to 00:17:05
Like, do I mind? Not at all. And you look absolutely fabulous. So of course you don't mind. Thank you.

Frank (Guest) | 00:17:05 to 00:17:24
Yeah. And it's interesting because the photo. So I wasn't, you know, so that's the thing, is, I wasn't even photographed for a book. The photo came from a shoot that I did previously, like, earlier in the year, and. But when I saw the mock ups of the book, it definitely made sense.

Frank (Guest) | 00:17:24 to 00:17:50
Like, I could see what she saw, because I feel like when you see the book, it looks like I was photographed for the book, but indeed I was not. It's actually a very special photo because that particular photoshoot. So a good friend of mine runs a vintage shop in Brooklyn, New York, and her aesthetic is very sort of dynasty meets Fran fon the nanny. That's so cool. Yes.

Frank (Guest) | 00:17:50 to 00:18:00
Of that sort of aesthetic. And her line is very open. Like, she's not about labels. It's all about wear, what feels good to you sort of vibes. I love that.

Frank (Guest) | 00:18:00 to 00:18:28
Yes. She's very welcoming in that regard, which I think is one of the reasons why we were sort of drawing to each other initially and became really good friends. And so things, like, for someone just putting on a dress, like, she doesn't even think twice about that. So when we did the shoot, this was the first time that I had ever had sort of worn a dress as just myself. And so she didn't even really know that because it doesn't even cross her mind in that sort of way.

Frank (Guest) | 00:18:28 to 00:18:45
She was just like, oh, we have this great dress, and you're here, so let's. You know, we need. Let's photograph this dress, you know? And little did she know, you know, that that was sort of going on. So this image, it's not just an image, it's kind of like a moment in time for you, captured and on a cover.

Frank (Guest) | 00:18:45 to 00:19:17
Yes, exactly. And it really was a sort of turning point for me because I probably a year or so before that, I had gone through a divorce and had been gone sort of going on a journey, gender journey after that, and sort of finding myself in new ways that I sort of never imagined. And I started to identify more as queer and stopped really using the word gay. Queer felt more fitting. But even that, and even at the time of the photo shoot that it's still.

Frank (Guest) | 00:19:17 to 00:19:54
I was still sort of going through sort of ideas in my head and that particular photo shoot and that moment was the turning point for me that ultimately led me to realise that I identified best as non binary. And just really, for me, it's just less constriction is really what I like. And what I found to be the most freeing for me is being in a space where I can just float and be whatever it is in the moment. And because sort of in my head in regards to, like, wearing a dress was something that I always associate it with. If I wear a dress, I have to be in like full drag.

Frank (Guest) | 00:19:54 to 00:20:11
I can never wear a dress as just like myself, when in reality you can do whatever you want. That's very true. And I don't think that fashion or clothes should have a gender label. If you feel great in it and you look great in it, just put it on. Exactly, exactly.

Frank (Guest) | 00:20:11 to 00:20:39
And that's really what I had to go through. Like, in that journey of, like, realising that that's exactly how I look at it. And, you know, there's some days, you know, I may want to wear a dress in Doc Martens and then the next day, like giving like, leather daddy sort of vibes and having that freedom to do that, you know, being in a space where I feel the most free that I've ever felt in my life. To just be whatever it is in that moment. That's awesome.

Archie (Host) | 00:20:39 to 00:21:03
And I love that that's been captured for you and on a queer book. Can you tell me a bit more about it? What's inside? So it's the second edition of queer style. And it really goes into a lot of how queer people use fashion as a way to identify and the second edition goes further into sort of trans identities and queer style and things of that.

Frank (Guest) | 00:21:03 to 00:21:33
And that's really one of the biggest updates with the second edition. And, you know, and so, like, in that regard is something that I very much identify with, you know, which was another. It was such an honour to be on this cover because that, for me, like, fashion is truly where that I identify. Like, with many queer people, it is sort of an armour, if you will, and very much how I identify in a used fashion to identify as a. Queer person on that cover.

Archie (Host) | 00:21:33 to 00:22:01
You just look so free. And to know that, you know, you've come from a background where you had quite a traditional father in sense, or a masculine, toxic father, and how far you've come and how free, and you just look so comfortable and, like, you've lived like that forever. It's absolutely beautiful. I really, knowing now that what you've gone through, it's just, you just look free and elegant and, like, you've been wearing that dress your whole life. Thank you.

Frank (Guest) | 00:22:01 to 00:22:48
Yeah, I mean, when I sort of, after the fact, when I had that conversation with the stylist, she was so, like, moved by that, you know, because she had no idea, like, what was going on in my head, you know, at the time of, like, this is, you know, like, it just really, truly opened my eyes that, like, oh, yeah, I can do this. I can wear a dress. I don't have to be in drag to wear a dress. Like, if I want to wear a dress, I'll wear a dressed. And, yeah, it sort of helped clear up sort of the things that were going through my head of, like, my identity and moved me towards sort of the non binary sort of way of identifying and realising that that's where I really fit and that, like, less about labels and just more about just being whatever it is in the moment.

Frank (Guest) | 00:22:48 to 00:23:12
And the same with, like, dressing, too. Like, I. I don't look at the gender. Like, when I look at clothes, I, you know, to me, if I like how it fits and I love the garment, like, that, to me is the most important. I just always find that interesting, like, of how much emphasis people tend to put on clothing, you know, because I will be asked from time to time, like, oh, is that men's or women's?

Frank (Guest) | 00:23:12 to 00:23:23
And I generally reply with, like, oh, I don't know. That's the best response. So you keep them guessing because it doesn't really matter at all. Exactly. And that's generally how I respond when I get asked.

Archie (Host) | 00:23:23 to 00:23:33
It's the perfect response because, you know, they want you to respond with agenda and when you don't, they just don't know what to do and it's perfect. Exactly, exactly. I love making people uncomfortable.

Archie (Host) | 00:23:35 to 00:24:01
Because I know you don't have a lot of time, but did you want to quickly touch on your current PhD research and what you're doing there? Sure. So my. So the topic for my PhD research stems from the very end of my master's thesis. So I did a coda instead of a traditional conclusion, and I interviewed another refresh and doll collector as sort of another way of saying, like, I'm not the only one.

Frank (Guest) | 00:24:01 to 00:25:20
Here's another perspective from a collector. And so when I did that interview, I initially really just did it as, like, an interesting way to end this piece of research. And then after I did that interview, I found it much more interesting than I thought, and so it never really left me. And then when the idea came to explore a PhD topic, I went back to that and started to figure out, like, how to turn that into a much bigger project, and that's sort of what I was able to do. So, essentially, my PhD focus will be interviewing queer fashion doll collectors, somewhere between 20 to 25, essentially, and looking at two parts, looking at the childhood story of a collector and looking at how many experience sort of very toxic masculine ideals sort of being denied to play with dolls because playing with dolls will make you gay and sort of that notion and, you know, having to play with dolls in secret and, you know, which can be, you know, very traumatic experiences as a kid, because I don't know about you, but, like, you know, as a kid, like, you don't understand these things when an adult is, like, telling you, like, you can't play with this, you know, and it's these insecurities and backgrounds that they experienced.

Frank (Guest) | 00:25:20 to 00:25:31
But as a kid, you're like, it's a toy. Why can't I just play with a toy? You know? So, yeah, I can totally relate to that. Being a kid, I wasn't allowed to play with the boys toys.

Archie (Host) | 00:25:31 to 00:25:45
I I wasn't allowed to play with the action men. I wanted the action men, the action figures. I got given a barbie, and you're gonna hate this, but I cut all the hair off to make it look like a boy. I was just like, I don't understand why I'm not allowed to play with the toys that I want. It's just a toy.

Frank (Guest) | 00:25:45 to 00:26:07
Yes, exactly. And it's so unfortunate that many have to go through that as a kid because you truly don't understand. You're like, it's just a toy. And it's, you know, the parents and their thought process. So looking at that story and those experiences as a collector, and then sort of for most, like, you know, leaving Barbie behind.

Frank (Guest) | 00:26:07 to 00:27:06
And so looking at that piece of the story and then looking at returning to dolls or similar objects as an adult and realising and looking at that moment of where one goes, like, if I want to do this, if I want to play with dolls, I will surely play with dolls. Like, I don't care. And you sort of squash those ideals that, you know, are cemented in your brain as a child that you in some ways, subconsciously just have this thing in the back of your head of, oh, I can't do that, that's wrong. And then realising and then squashing that idea. And so looking at that and then how they collect and what they collect and if they do any kind of sort of art form, you know, here in the US with, like, Trixie Mattel is a great example of someone queer collector, but also uses their passion for fashion dolls through drag, which is really cool.

Frank (Guest) | 00:27:06 to 00:27:34
And, yeah, so looking at that and all through the queer lens of queer theory, masculinities and gender, I also think. Sometimes that it's really hard when you grow up presenting as male and you have to fit in this kind of masculine box and that anything you do seems to be less masculine. It's almost like a harshness where with me when I was growing up, it wasn't. It was just like, we don't do that. We play with this.

Archie (Host) | 00:27:34 to 00:27:55
But I feel like it's really unfair for queer presenting males because they have this kind of toxic thing from society that kind of pushes them down and they have to really hide who they are. Do you resonate with that at all? Oh, yeah. I mean, absolutely. I mean, growing up, my father was in the Vietnam War.

Frank (Guest) | 00:27:55 to 00:28:33
I feel that that paints a very specific sort of ideal. And so that's, you know, as a kid growing up, like, I was always told constantly that I was different from very early on and I didn't feel different, but I figured I had to be different because I was constantly told that, but I had no idea what that really was. And so I have never been able to hide my queerness, even from a very early on age. And so it was obvious. And, like, my father was in denial and sort of painted this whole picture of a life that, you know, was truly not me at all.

Frank (Guest) | 00:28:33 to 00:29:11
So set up for failure from the get go of, you know, sort of this idea that, like, I have to carry on the family name and, you know, maybe you should enlist and, you know, go into the army and, you know, do all these things that, like, no, like, that's not me at all. Your world would have been completely different had you gone down that path. Yes, exactly. And, you know, but when I look at that now, it's like clearly denial. Like you're, you know, this person, you know, was creating this life in their head of, like, you know, trying to move away from the fact that, like, no, I'm queer.

Frank (Guest) | 00:29:11 to 00:29:43
Like individual. And, like, those are not things that I'm going to do. But it's just interesting, like, experiencing that sort of as a kid. And I know that many of us, many queer people go through sort of similar things of sort of these ideals that are kind of drilled into our heads that are not what any of us want. And, you know, it takes time to sort of get to that point as an adult or, you know, whatever age where we're able to just kind of live the life that we want and we're meant for.

Archie (Host) | 00:29:43 to 00:30:09
Yeah. And did you need some more queer doll collectors? So if anybody is listening right now and they are a queer collector, is there any way they can get in touch with you or reach you to be a part of your PhD? Yes, I'm definitely open to taking more response. You can find me on Instagram annyourstyle or my website, frankienew.com, and send me a message.

Archie (Host) | 00:30:10 to 00:30:22
Awesome. Thank you so much. Before we leave, I've got two things. One, what is your last word of advice to our listeners? And then two, if you could create your own Barbie, what would it be like?

Frank (Guest) | 00:30:24 to 00:30:57
So I feel a good word of advice to go out on is be unapologetic, be loud and be you. Especially in a time definitely here in the US, be as loud as you can be and be heard. That is just so important right now in this day and age, with everything that's going on in the world. And as far as a Barbie, I feel that if I would have my own Barbie, it would truly be head to toe in leopard. Love that.

Frank (Guest) | 00:30:57 to 00:31:09
With a pop of red. That's very cool. Leopard is, like, my favourite neutral for me. It goes with everything. I've never heard someone say leopard is a neutral.

Frank (Guest) | 00:31:09 to 00:31:28
I mean, yeah, it's like, oh, love that. Welcome to my world of fashion. Oh, well, I think that's where we're going to end this episode on. Leopard is a neutral told directly from a fashion designer. So thank you so much for joining us on this episode and reaching out.

Archie (Host) | 00:31:29 to 00:31:47
I think it was early last year when we first started. So thank you so much for sticking around and I've been looking forward to this chat for a very long time. If anybody wants to get in touch with you. Where can they reach you? You can find me on Instagram and your style alwyn word and frankienew.com amazing.

Archie (Host) | 00:31:47 to 00:31:57
Thank you everyone for listening. If you like this episode, don't forget to rate, review and subscribe on all your favourite platforms. And until next time, I hope that we have been perfectly queer.