The Truth about Transgender Athletes: Science, Stories, and Equality in Sports

On this episode we delve into the subject of Transgender athletes in sport. 

We also share the story of Trudy, a Trans woman who has joined an LGBTQIA+ netball club where she finally feels comfortable. We follow her journey as her team encounters a situation where the opposing team breaks the rules and challenges Trudy's identity.

Through Trudy's experience, we highlight the importance of inclusivity in sports and encourage gender-diverse individuals to participate without fear or hesitation. The episode also addresses common misconceptions about transgender athletes.

We explore the impact and relevance of this issue in recent years, shedding light on the complexities of hormone therapy, different physical attributes, and the need for clear policies to ensure fair and inclusive competition. We also challenge the discriminatory arguments against trans athletes, emphasising the harm caused by exclusion and the benefits of fostering a supportive and diverse sporting community.

Below is a list of organisations that provide further information and support  information sourced from Health direct.
QLife — counselling and referral service for LGBTIQ+ individuals: call 1800 184 527 (3pm to midnight daily) or chat online.
Lifeline — support for anyone having a personal crisis: call 13 11 14, 24/7, text, or chat online.
Headspace — mental health space for ages 12-25 years.

Links we found extremely useful when researching for this topic:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-06-16/transgender-inclusion-guidelines-for-australian-sport/102486230
https://www.sportaus.gov.au/integrity_in_sport/transgender_and_gender_diverse_people_in_sport
https://www.transhub.org.au/sport
https://equalityaustralia.org.au/no-case-for-blanket-ban-on-trans-athletes/
https://www.aclu.org/news/lgbtq-rights/four-myths-about-trans-athletes-debunked
https://www.transhub.org.au/hormones
https://fairplayforwomen.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/How-inclusion-in-sport-is-harming-women-and-girls-by-Fair-Play-For-Women-14-Jan-2024.pdf
https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/news/sex-matters-why-transgender-athletes-must-not-compete-against-biological-females/
https://www.outsports.com/2024/4/12/24091267/transgender-athletes-study-research-science-sports-governing-bodies/
https://www.americanprogress.org/article/fair-play/
https://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/journals/UNSWLawJlStuS/2022/17.html
https://www.npr.org/2023/04/09/1168858094/arguments-that-trans-athletes-have-an-unfair-advantage-lacks-evidence-to-support
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5357259/
(links to heaps of other articles)
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1357034X06067157
https://www.outsports.com/2024/4/12/24091267/transgender-athletes-study-resea

Transcript

Podcast: Let's Be Perfectly Queer

Episode Title: Transgender Athletes In Sport

Host(s): Archie, Katie

Guest(s): Trudy

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Archie (Host) | 00:00:05 to 00:00:23
Welcome to let's be perfectly queer, a. Queer podcast, creating space to talk about all things queer. My name is Archie. And I'm Katie, and we are your hosts. Questions of how you identify, seeking answers to clarify whether you're queen or somewhere in between.

Archie (Host) | 00:00:23 to 00:00:39
Let's be perfectly queer. And on today's episode, we're looking into a topic that sparked intense debate across the sporting world. Transgender athletes and their place in competitive sports. Oof. So with this topic, I think I've been researching it for, like, what, a good three, four months?

Katie (Host) | 00:00:39 to 00:00:57
It's such a, like, even longer. I started ages ago and I was like, this topic's too big. I'm just gonna let it go for a while. And I came back to it, and the thing is, it's such a big thing that I've been researching it on and off for about four months now. Yeah, basically, ever since we got back from Japan, I was like, this is a topic that we need to be talking about.

Archie (Host) | 00:00:57 to 00:01:40
And we had our lovely follower Trudy, send us a message, and we're going to include that in today's episode before we get into everything. So we're going to listen to just an experience that they had, and then we're going to get into more about this topic. 

Trudy (Guest) | 00:01:40 to 00:02:16
Hey, guys, I just want to say that I love your show and I really get a lot out of it every time I listen. I wanted to tell you a story because I know that there's a lot of issue around trans women in sport, and it's been in the news recently, but this is a little bit of a different spin on the issue and I just thought you might like to know a little bit about myself. I'm a trans woman in my late forties.

I came out later in life just over two years ago now, and last year I decided to start expanding my presence in the queer community, and sports always been something I enjoyed. I was never very good at it, but I enjoyed it a lot of. Anyway, in looking around, I was alerted to the fact that there was a new LGBTQIA netball club starting. So I contacted them and I found that shooting stars was somewhere I instantly felt comfortable. The executive of the club made me feel so much at home pretty much straight away.

Trudy (Guest) | 00:02:17 to 00:03:01
Now, I am very aware that as much as I try, I often fail at looking feminine, especially since I had male pattern balding. So people often misgendered me while playing netball because I couldn't cover my head while I was playing. One week we were playing against an overly aggressive team, and throughout the game, they were getting more and more frustrated that they were losing. I'm not sure how much you know about mixed netball, but one of the rules is that you can't have more than three mal identifying players on the courthouse at any one time and you can't have two males in the goal circle together. So I was playing goalkeeper and we had a male playing in goal defence.

Trudy (Guest) | 00:03:01 to 00:03:35
We got to the final quarter and they put two males in their goal circle at the defending end. When it was pointed out that they couldn't do that, one of the females on their team piped up and said, oh, we're just doing what they are. It took a little while, but when the umpires realised they were talking about me, they politely pointed out that I'm not male. The female on their team then pointed at one of the males and said, well, he identifies as a woman as well. There was a lot of confusion around that.

Trudy (Guest) | 00:03:35 to 00:04:01
Their team was laughing because they all thought it was a big joke. Both of these guys were absolutely massive and both sporting full beards and definitely, clearly not female identifying. The umpire, trying to sort this out as quickly as possible and easily as possible, said to the guy, do you identify as woman? Now? Both of the guys who were standing there were obviously as confused as we were.

Trudy (Guest) | 00:04:01 to 00:04:31
They both pretty much said in unison, who are you talking to? Making it more obvious that this was just utter B's. One of them quickly caught on to what his teammate was trying to do and laughed and said, yeah, I do. So the issue now became a lot harder for the umpires because as soon as he gave that answer, the umpires just had to accept it and move on. So we swallowed our anger and decided to make them pay for it on the court.

Trudy (Guest) | 00:04:32 to 00:05:14
We continued to beat them and after the game we were standing around talking about what we just experienced and the umpires came over and apologised to me for having to go through that, which I thought I was amazingly kind and respectful of them. They also advised that they would report the incident to the duty manager and we all thanked them for their professionalism and that was the end of it. So that night our club president contacted the venue's nepal manager and I advised him of what happened. He let her know that he'd already been advised of the incident and he was trying to contact the other team to get their side of the story. He was really quick to try and get the situation cleared up.

Trudy (Guest) | 00:05:14 to 00:05:52
He later advised that the team had been given an official warning about their behaviour and that upon receiving that warning, they have decided to withdraw from the competition completely. So we were all a little bit upset about that for a couple of reasons. Firstly, it was disappointing that they would prefer not to play at all than to be decent humans. And secondly, we were looking forward to the next time we played them so we could pretty much invite everyone we knew and fill the whole arena with rainbows just to annoy them. So that's it.

Trudy (Guest) | 00:05:52 to 00:06:33
But I just wanted to let you know because, like I said, this is a bit of a different spin to the trans women in sport issue, and I just thought you might find it interesting. I just want to let anyone, gender diverse people out there, trans or otherwise, who want to participate in sport, that think they can't just let them know that they shouldn't let anyone stop them from being them. And if anyone in Perth has questions about queer sport, they should contact team Perth. They're on Facebook, and there's a lot of queer sporting clubs in Perth. And whoever you are, whatever your skill level, you can play and be accepted.

Trudy (Guest) | 00:06:33 to 00:06:54
Thank you very much, guys. I really appreciate you letting me do this. It took me ages to try and record this because it's been a while since this incident, but it's still a little bit hard to actually talk about it. So I love what you do, and I love all your episodes, and I can't wait for the next one. Thank you. Bye. 

Katie (Host) | 00:06:54 to 00:07:09
It is something that we've talked about a lot in the past. Not on the podcast. So if you haven't heard anything, it's because we haven't chatted on the podcast just yet. No, because it is a big topic, but it's something that has come up in the last couple of years where we've been talking about sports.

Katie (Host) | 00:07:09 to 00:07:39
It's definitely been highly evident. And then having it from both a professional level to just a normal, friendly, social level of sports, having it affecting all the different elements. I'm like, geez Louise. Like, I can't believe that even just in the base level of social sports, it's still something that is so people were, all right, I need to compose myself. And it's not, you know, it's not just transgender athletes.

Archie (Host) | 00:07:39 to 00:07:47
Like you said, it's not just transgender athletes. In the competitive level, it is just your regular, everyday Joe. Yeah. Everybody. Everybody is impacted by this.

Archie (Host) | 00:07:47 to 00:08:07
And just like Trudy shared their story, it's not an isolated story. This happens a lot around the world. Yeah. With more transgender athletes getting attention lately, we really need to look into the challenges they're dealing with and how it's shaken up the world of sports, you've probably heard the media going on about how hormones can affect athletic performance, right? Mmm.

Archie (Host) | 00:08:07 to 00:08:27
They often suggest that it's like, it's not fair to be competing with transgender and gender diverse athletes. Yeah. These arguments are forgetting that hormone levels vary from everyone, not just transgender athletes. Not just transgender individuals. Your hormone levels will be different to your sister's hormone levels.

Archie (Host) | 00:08:27 to 00:08:40
Hormone levels in general, it varies. And regardless of gender identity. Yeah. I find it funny when you see them and they're just. They're acting like trans people are, like, bionic people that you've, like, implanted something.

Archie (Host) | 00:08:40 to 00:08:56
Super sports people. Yeah, absolutely. Like, you've implanted something and then all of a sudden, it's just like, you are gonna be the fastest runner around because you've got testosterone, or you are gonna be, like, the most agile person and flexible because you've had some oestrogen. It's like, bro, we are not bionic people. It's not the way it works.

Katie (Host) | 00:08:56 to 00:09:05
Yeah. Cause everybody is unique. Right. And it's only natural that different people will perform differently in sports. I used to be really good at soccer.

Archie (Host) | 00:09:05 to 00:09:13
Was I good at other sports? Like, I can't play touch rugby. I can't do other things. I'm not good at them. Like, I'm okay at them, but they're not my.

Archie (Host) | 00:09:13 to 00:09:39
What my body was built to do or not what my body was better designed to play, if that makes sense. What is your thoughts? Do you think it's unfair to be competing with transgender or gender diverse athletes? Okay, so I have done a bit of research on this as well, just because I found it very interesting, and I thought if we're going to be talking about a topic, I want to have some basis and understanding of it. So I'm guessing I won't say any of the statistics just yet because you'll come on to it later on.

Katie (Host) | 00:09:39 to 00:09:50
He's nodding his head at me. Just for everyone. Oh, yeah. I was about to say, yeah. I think that it is fair that you have athletes that are training together that are trans non binary, or however you identify.

Katie (Host) | 00:09:50 to 00:10:16
I don't think that's the issue. I think that in some sports, it should probably be based around weight, and that will govern what body mass index. Like, if you're doing, say, boxing, I think it should just come at a weight basis rather than anything else, even though it does now. I feel like if you were involving people who are trans, or if you're looking at that, it could just be a weight basis. I think if you're looking at something that's like surfing, I don't think it really matters.

Katie (Host) | 00:10:16 to 00:10:53
I don't think it matters at all if you've got somebody who is trans. I don't think that if you were on hormone replacement therapy or if you'd had surgeries, I think if you've got gender affirming surgeries or you've had hormones, it's not going to be changing or making you absolutely brilliant at doing a sport. Yep. If anything, if you've managed to have gender affirming surgery and say that you've had boobs, I think it's probably penalising you from being good at anything, because I tell you what, boobs are not made for speed. So, yeah, this idea that transgender women particularly, that's what's got everybody's knickers in a knot, it's not the trans men.

Archie (Host) | 00:10:53 to 00:11:32
It's kind of like people have forgot that trans men are in sport and they are, you know, competing in sport, whether it be boxing or whatever, but it feels like the society have the issue with transgender women in sport and the fact that they feel like they are taking over women's sport teams, but it's more about people's opinions rather than facts, because there's nothing. I couldn't find any. I've searched the World Wide Web and I couldn't find any facts to back that statement up. Yeah. Trans and gender diverse individuals join sports for all sorts of reasons, not just to be the best, which is this idea that's been floated by media and society, specifically in America, and it's been starting to creep in to Australia as well.

Archie (Host) | 00:11:32 to 00:11:59
I grew up with sport and I love physical activity and I think as an australian sport and physical activity and being outside is part of the australian culture. Right. And if you are denying a transgender young individual from participating in sport, right. You're also denying them a part of the australian culture. I personally used to love soccer, playing soccer and futsal, but since transitioning, I was too scared to get back to it, so I never did.

Katie (Host) | 00:11:59 to 00:12:21
Yeah. And so I wasn't sure that I would be in the right environment to feel accepted and safe. And I don't want that to happen to the next generation of transgender individuals and it is happening to them. You know, I used to love it. I used to play so much soccer, so much footsuit, my knees will tell you how much footsal I used to play, but I'm just too scared to go back into an environment that I won't feel safe and accepted.

Katie (Host) | 00:12:21 to 00:12:36
Yeah, it's opening yourself up to a lot of discrimination. Potentially, yeah. And I say potentially because there's a small potential that you might not be. If you have the most supporting people in the world. You live in a small community.

Katie (Host) | 00:12:36 to 00:12:49
Nobody else is aware and everyone is, like, really happy about it. But we've seen time and time again, and it's like that movie we saw recently that had a brain blanked for a while. It was a Taika Waititi film. Yeah. Is it like goal or something or.

Katie (Host) | 00:12:50 to 00:13:00
It didn't have Eddie Fassbender in it. I can't remember. It had the guy who plays Loki. No, it doesn't have the guy who plays Loki as the guy who plays magneto in X Men. Gosh, this is when we need.

Katie (Host) | 00:13:00 to 00:13:15
Anyway, it was based around American Samoa and how. There was a soccer coach that had been exiled from the US. No, it was UK, wasn't it? I can't remember. Was us or UK one of those.

Katie (Host) | 00:13:15 to 00:13:33
Anyway, don't listen to us for movie reviews. We'll tell you small increments of things that may or may not be correct. But anyway, it was about sports, and it was about a coach coming from somewhere else, and it was American Samoa, and it was great. And it was. There was a team player or a team member on the American Samoa team who was trans.

Katie (Host) | 00:13:34 to 00:13:54
And because in samoan culture, they have three genders, they have special people in their community that are trans, but they are a third gender that is not. Yeah, I think something like that. Yeah. And it's beautiful because they're saying, we. Spoke about this a couple episodes ago.

Katie (Host) | 00:13:54 to 00:13:59
Quite a few episodes. Last year? Was it last year? It was last year. I don't think it was that long ago.

Katie (Host) | 00:13:59 to 00:14:37
And it was just beautiful. And it was beautiful how you could see that this trans woman who was just adopted into the team and everyone thought that they were so special for who they were and significantly more special because they were trans. I'm gonna say that they were trans because I can't remember the specific word and I don't want to dishonour it. I think that that is such a beautiful outlook, and if that's how trans people were perceived as being just another player or just how beautiful it could have been, it has, like, it's just. Got so much power in this episode, I felt like the easiest way to share this information is to focus on the myths about transgender individuals in sport.

Archie (Host) | 00:14:38 to 00:15:13
But first, let's explore the challenges that transgender athletes face and the impact on the sporting landscape. One of the first things that people forget is the psychological barriers that a transgender athlete faces compared to anybody else. With transgender athletes, they often face unique challenges, including discrimination, stigma and anxiety about acceptance within their respective sports community, which is kind of what I mentioned about me not wanting to go back because of those kind of things. This can have a massive impact on their mental health and wellbeing and performance. It's important to create an exclusive and supportive environment for transgender athletes.

Archie (Host) | 00:15:13 to 00:15:38
This includes respecting their gender identity, addressing any concerns they may have, and providing tailored training programmes that take into account their individual needs and goals. And it's about finding a balance between what is fair and what is anti discrimination and that kind of stuff. And that's what I think at the moment. The world is kind of trying to come up with a lot of policies and we're seeing even more policies come about. I think Leah Thomas was just told they can't compete in the Olympics.

Katie (Host) | 00:15:39 to 00:15:59
Would you mind explaining to me who Leah Thomas is? So, Leah Thomas, she's that famous american transgender athlete. She's kind of spurred all of the anti trans stuff that's been happening in America because she won a couple of, what do they call them? Meets, like medals and stuff. And she was a transgender woman who used to compete as a man.

Katie (Host) | 00:15:59 to 00:16:05
And then does she swim or swimmer? Okay, sure. Yes. You haven't heard of Leah Thomas? You would have heard Leah Thomas.

Katie (Host) | 00:16:05 to 00:16:16
I don't follow sports. Oh, it was just all over the news. I can't remember if she was in the last Olympics. The same as that transgender athlete from New Zealand who was a weightlifter. And everybody was like, going to be so unfair.

Archie (Host) | 00:16:16 to 00:16:28
They're going to take out the competition. And I don't think they even got past the first round. Yeah. So it's. It's quite interesting that everybody focused on Leah Thomas and everybody's forgot about this transgender New Zealand athlete who didn't make.

Archie (Host) | 00:16:28 to 00:16:43
So it's. It's interesting to look at. So before I go into a bit more, what are some of the arguments that you've heard for and against. Oh, for and against transgender athletes competing in sports? I haven't heard anyone fall apart from myself and yourself.

Katie (Host) | 00:16:43 to 00:17:20
So I don't think there's been much debate for people, for trans people competing in intersex sports and that kind of stuff. I think it's a difficult one because I think that I haven't really heard much positivity with trans people competing in sports, especially at an international level. I think that it's the main things that I've heard from people have been that they've got a overwhelming advantage against people who are cisgender. Yep. But there has never really been much of a backing of, like, where they get that from.

Katie (Host) | 00:17:20 to 00:17:49
It's just the hypothesis that, of course, like, every man is stronger than every woman and that's just what it comes down to, which is incorrect if you actually look at any of the research data for it. I personally, like, like I said, I don't think there's an issue with it. I think there's always going to be some people who are more gendered or, like, more made physiologically to be better at some sports. That's just how it is. But the things that I've heard have always been negative.

Katie (Host) | 00:17:50 to 00:18:21
Gearing towards it. Yep. And obviously, leading up to the Olympics, there's definitely a lot more negative stuff about transgender athletes and whatnot. And I think it's definitely finding a balance between fairness and inclusivity and it's about creating clear, inclusive policies. So I was looking up, there are some sporting Australia policies about that kind of thing, but there's no denying that physical difference between individuals can impact on performance, but that is physical differences between everybody.

Archie (Host) | 00:18:21 to 00:18:46
Right? So if you're extremely tall, you're probably gonna be better at netball than me at my five foot, you know, three height. Right. However, transgender athletes, they undergo hormone therapy as part of their transition, which can lessen some of these differences. And it's been proven that it can impact on your athletic ability if you were born male and you transition into being female, things like muscle mass and stamina and all that does change.

Archie (Host) | 00:18:46 to 00:19:04
And I'm going to go into that a little bit more in detail a little bit later on. But there's a crucial point. Hormone therapy can level the playing field to some extent, but there's still some debate over how much of a competitive advantage transgender athletes may have. I feel like there's so much greyness in this area. Then what do you mean?

Katie (Host) | 00:19:04 to 00:19:28
I mean by the fact of, like, if you've had hormone therapy, then it makes sense that you can. It's that whole thing of, like, how trans are you? Like, how trans is somebody? Is somebody trans because they identify as somebody of a gender that they weren't assigned at birth? Does making somebody go through hormone therapy make them trans?

Katie (Host) | 00:19:28 to 00:19:43
Which it doesn't. You're trans if you identify differently. But then how does this come into sports? Which I'm sure you're gonna tell me. Because you have to meet certain hormone levels to be able to compete at a, you know, at that kind of competitive level.

Archie (Host) | 00:19:43 to 00:20:05
You must meet specific levels and every single transgender athlete has to meet specifically. Unfortunately, it's always targeted at the trans women. Yeah. And they need to meet very strict and very regimented, like kind of boxes before they can actually compete. Biologically, testosterone is associated with increased muscle mass.

Archie (Host) | 00:20:05 to 00:20:21
Yes. So if you're a trans woman who's been having oestrogen and therefore depleting your testosterone stores, no matter what, you're going to have decreased muscle mass. That's what happens. Yeah. And, you know, and I'm going to go into this a little bit later on, but I.

Archie (Host) | 00:20:22 to 00:20:30
Where do we draw the line? Because I was. Before I started transitioning, I had an abnormal amount of testosterone in my body. Well, I was going to ask, do they not test everyone's. That's the thing.

Archie (Host) | 00:20:30 to 00:20:55
If they're going to start going down this route, are you then going to test everyone who is deemed to be better than everybody else? And so we're going to go into this because it's about creating a level playing field where all athletes, regardless of gender identity, have the opportunity to compete and succeed no matter what. Because, like, what if you have somebody who's cisgendered? But. And I don't want to say that people take drugs to improve their performance, but in the past they have done.

Katie (Host) | 00:20:55 to 00:21:07
Then there's the potential. If you had somebody who is female presenting, taking testosterone, having increased body mass, and then going doing something like bodybuilding. Yeah. Weightlifting. Yeah.

Archie (Host) | 00:21:07 to 00:21:30
The Australian Sports Commission. So the ASC partner with the Australian Human Rights Commission and the Coalition of major professionals and participation sports to develop guidelines for the inclusion of transgender and gender diverse people in sport. The guidelines provide practical advice on how sporting organisations can create and promote an inclusive environment for transgender and gender diverse people. There is a whole document and I'll link that in our show notes. That's interesting.

Katie (Host) | 00:21:30 to 00:21:41
When was that created? Recently. I think it was really, really recently. I want to say, like 2020 or like later. It is a new document, so it is something that.

Archie (Host) | 00:21:41 to 00:21:55
And there's lots of key points in there. I wonder what created the catalyst for that being created. I think it was probably things like Leah Thomas and the last Olympics as well. So I think that. And also just the debate that there is a lot going on with that.

Archie (Host) | 00:21:55 to 00:22:19
Transgender women don't belong in competitive sports, which I think is ridiculous. But all those debates on the media, specifically in the US and the UK, and coming in here as well. But they are in line with the International Olympic Committee guidelines advocating for inclusion first. So I find it interesting that Leah Thomas has been told they can't compete in the Olympics and that kind of stuff. But I'm sure we'll hear more about that when the Olympics start next month.

Archie (Host) | 00:22:20 to 00:22:37
Anyway, so let's get into the actual way that I'm going to go through this and we're going to go through myths and misconceptions. We're going to talk about what the myth is, I'm going to discuss them and then we're going to go through each point. Have you heard this myth? The participation of trans athletes hurts cis women? Have you heard that myth before?

Katie (Host) | 00:22:37 to 00:22:58
No. What do you mean hurt cis women? So when I say hurts, it like, you know, impacts on their ability to perform in the sport or it hurts them in their wanting to participate in sports and that kind of stuff. So we're assuming that the trans athletes will be taking spots of cis women who should have been able to perform in that level. I do believe about the transgender woman from New Zealand.

Archie (Host) | 00:22:58 to 00:23:39
When she was announced, there was a lot of debate from people saying that she's taking the spot of a cis woman, you know, or a real woman in quotation, as a lot of the comments were like. Critics argue that allowing trans athletes to compete will harm cisgender women, citing concerns about fairness and opportunities for women. But this argument overlooks critical aspects of inclusivity and fairness. Cause they don't think about all the psychological barriers that that trans woman has had to overcome before getting to that point. I mean, in the same way they're acting as if this person hasn't had to do the same amount of training, the same amount of coaching, put the same amount of hours and performance into achieving what we've had achieved, which is false.

Katie (Host) | 00:23:39 to 00:23:52
It's still a person, still an athlete, training and working as hard as they can to get into these spots. It just so happens that this person has to be. Happens to be a trans woman. That's exactly it. It's not a bionic person.

Archie (Host) | 00:23:52 to 00:24:18
It's not a robot. There was a situation in Idaho. The ACLU represented two young women, one trans and one cis, both adversely affected by laws targeting trans athletes. This exclusionary approach can lead to things like, any woman might be subjected to invasive tests or accusations of being too masculine or too good at their sport to be a real woman. So if you are to do this, you're also, if you're going to deny trans women to be in sport, what's the next thing?

Archie (Host) | 00:24:19 to 00:24:47
Are you then going to test every single woman who might seem a bit too masculine? What about the women who do appear more androgynous, are you then going to subject them to unnecessary and evasive tests because they don't fit into your box of what a woman should be in a sport? Yeah, I mean, are we going back to the days where men used to internally test if a woman had broken their hymen before getting married? Like, what the hell are we up to? This is fucking disgusting, right?

Katie (Host) | 00:24:47 to 00:24:58
Do women literally have to be dacked and be like, oh, your genitals? Yes. Your clitoris is appropriate to your labia, therefore you are an appropriate person. What the fuck are we talking about? It just.

Archie (Host) | 00:24:58 to 00:25:17
It's going backwards. And if you were to go down that route of, you know, all trans women can't be in sport, then are you gonna literally test every single person? It's like, oh, well, that person's a little bit good at jumping, or that one's a little bit too fast. And it's also like you were saying, some people more androgynous than others. Like, get me on a certain day, and I probably look like a man.

Katie (Host) | 00:25:17 to 00:25:27
What happens if I was like, if I was a star athlete? I've got quite broad shoulders. I'm not gonna lie. I'm not the most feminine person in the world. I say, as my voice is getting a little bit lower.

Katie (Host) | 00:25:28 to 00:25:38
But it's that whole thing of, like, what's our criteria? What if somebody is intersex? Like, what is all this kind of stuff? And that's another thing I was gonna look at. What if someone is intersex?

Archie (Host) | 00:25:38 to 00:25:56
Are they not allowed to play in any sport? What if somebody doesn't even know they're intersex? That's exactly it. So there's all these things as well. And, you know, we're looking at stereotypes as well, in historical context, because the myth that trans inclusion harms women reinforces damaging stereotypes that women are weak and need protection.

Katie (Host) | 00:25:56 to 00:26:13
Yeah. And then if you look at, like, the historical context of people trying to save women, right. Oh, we're trying to save women from trans women and that kind of stuff. Politicians have historically used similar things to exclude marginalised groups from public spaces. It's fear mongering.

Archie (Host) | 00:26:13 to 00:26:30
Yes. And it's under the guise of safety. Cause that 2016 bathroom bill in the United States that they brought in, it attempts to ban trans people from public restrooms by creating the debunked bathroom predator myth. But the only people who are bathroom predators tend to be cis men. Yes.

Katie (Host) | 00:26:30 to 00:26:45
They shouldn't be putting this on other people. But it was that whole bathroom myth that, you know, the trans women are transitioning so they could get into the bathrooms. It's ridiculous. And, you know, and you're looking back at segregation, and you're looking at that kind of stuff, and it's all hidden under the guise of safety. But it's not.

Archie (Host) | 00:26:45 to 00:27:16
It's literally just segregation. It's segregation, and it's discrimination. What I also don't get is that, I mean, there are a lot of people who've grown up in actually not Australia or in America, but in different countries. And I'm thinking of Nikki makeup, who she is from the Netherlands. And when she was born, I sonned male at birth, and she happened to have very open parents, which was great.

Katie (Host) | 00:27:16 to 00:27:29
She went on hormone blockers, and then she went on oestrogen. And she's been female her whole life. Like, it is what it is. She's a trans woman. And she ended up being outed a couple of years ago.

Katie (Host) | 00:27:29 to 00:27:40
But the whole thing is, is that she's never. She's very tall. Granted, I think she's, like, six foot something. But the thing is, is that prior to her being outed, she was a woman. Yes.

Katie (Host) | 00:27:40 to 00:27:47
She was just a woman. Nobody had anything to say because she was just a woman. And that's great. I. And now she identifies as trans women, which is fabulous.

Katie (Host) | 00:27:47 to 00:27:59
I think that's absolutely awesome. She gets to hone her own identity. I think that's great. But trans women are women. And the thing that people forget is that what if this trans woman is just living as a woman and then you're outing her?

Archie (Host) | 00:27:59 to 00:28:08
Yeah. What if she's not ready to be outed? What if she's just lived as a woman and people like, it doesn't matter? Yeah. Oh, that pisses me off, because what if it's not safe?

Archie (Host) | 00:28:08 to 00:28:26
That's exactly. What if you've got the Olympics somewhere and she hasn't been outed and she's just working out there and she's, like, a cool athlete? She's probably not the fastest person who knows. She's just living out there and she's done her due diligence and done all this kind of stuff, and then all of a sudden, society's been like, no. Yeah.

Katie (Host) | 00:28:26 to 00:28:31
What the fuck? Right? And that's the thing. It's because it's all in the guise of safety. But who are you really?

Archie (Host) | 00:28:31 to 00:28:41
It's not. Yeah. It's just an excuse to be discriminatory. Yeah, but use policies and bills to do it. I'll give you some expert opinions on the fact about team unity and inclusivity.

Archie (Host) | 00:28:41 to 00:29:17
So Helen Carroll is a sports policy expert and explains excluding subsets of girls based on gender identity can undermine team unity and foster divisiveness. There's also a doctor, Mary Fry, and she said that youth actually benefit most from athletics in a supportive environment. Banning some girls from sports solely because they are transgender compromises these benefits and perpetrates discrimination, which I've been saying, it's all an excuse for discrimination. Growing up in a small country town, everybody played sport, you know, as a kid. Up until you got into the adults, it was all mixed gender.

Archie (Host) | 00:29:17 to 00:29:23
It didn't matter. Yeah. And there was girls who were better than boys. Oh, totally. It did not matter at all, you know?

Archie (Host) | 00:29:23 to 00:29:44
And there are concerns raised by critics that, you know, allowing transgender women to compete may create unfair competition. Like we've said, it potentially demoralises cisgender athletes, impacting records, rankings and opportunities with. This is what critics are saying. But where is the proof? Literally, isn't there that female basketballer who's been proven to be better than all the men's basketballers in America?

Archie (Host) | 00:29:44 to 00:29:55
I forgot about her. I'm like, she's fucking brilliant. And she shows that she has outplayed every top male basketballer that was out there. And it's just like, well, what of it? It just shows gender shouldn't be played in sports.

Archie (Host) | 00:29:55 to 00:30:14
There's concerns about privacy and consent in mixed gender environments. It's like, people forget that people who are trans. People don't forget people are misinformed that being trans may or may not like, doesn't guarantee your sexual identity. No. Just because you're trans doesn't mean that you're gay.

Archie (Host) | 00:30:14 to 00:30:45
No. Going down this kind of rabbit hole. There wasn't a lot against transgender athletes in sport that were scientific documents or proper articles. The only thing I could find was this report that was called fair Play for women, and it highlighted firsthand testimonies from 35 sports in the UK, revealing how so called trans inclusion is leading to the exclusion of women and girls from sport. In the document, it looks at six key areas, including unfair competition, loss of opportunities, and risk to privacy and safety.

Archie (Host) | 00:30:45 to 00:30:57
But it is just an opinion piece. There is not one expert. It is literally just people who play sport with their comments on it. And I think it was like 34 or 64 pages. And out of that, I remember there being like 20 pages of just.

Archie (Host) | 00:30:58 to 00:31:09
Just comments from other people playing sport. So it was not a report. It was basically an opinion piece disguised as a report. Yeah. I will also link that report in the show notes so you can have a look and see what I mean.

Archie (Host) | 00:31:09 to 00:31:39
You'll get angry. Yeah. I mean, when I did look at some research for this, and granted, I've got the resources to look at a lot of health based documents and evidence based documents, and there wasn't very much. And what there was, it shows that with trans individuals related to cisgendered individuals, both male and female, it found that the testosterone levels or the hormones were generally the same within trans individuals to non trans individuals. To cisgendered individuals.

Katie (Host) | 00:31:40 to 00:32:16
The bone density was generally very similar or negligible when it came to it, and the muscle mass was negligible as well. So there was no scientific proof. And it did evidence that it said that there needs to be a lot more research done in this space. But from what it could see in the sample size that it got, is that there was no difference between trans athletes to cisgendered athletes. So that most of the criteria that it's based on, or the ideas that trans people are more biologically advantaged in the athletic field is a load of nonsense.

Archie (Host) | 00:32:16 to 00:32:36
Yeah, I think you shared this with me and I think I've got some stats about that as well. What was more interesting, and we'll go into this later on, is that trans women, actually, they were a lot worse in several categories compared to cis women. And we're going to go into that. So the next myth is trans athletes physiological characteristics provide an unfair advantage over cis athletes. And the last one kind of connects.

Archie (Host) | 00:32:36 to 00:32:51
But one of the prevailing myths surrounding transgender athletes in women's sports is the idea that they inherently have an advantage. Yeah, no matter what. But let's examine the realities that challenge this perception. Let's look at the factual breakdown. Point number one, diversity in athletic ability.

Archie (Host) | 00:32:51 to 00:33:10
And we've spoken about this. Transgender athletes, just like every other athlete, vary widely in their athletic abilities. And Andrea Yearwood was a student, track athlete and ACLU client. And they point out factors like training technique, like what you've mentioned. Natural and physical attributes play significant roles in athletic performance, not just your gender.

Archie (Host) | 00:33:10 to 00:33:42
All these things do. One high jumper could be taller and have longer legs than another, but the other could have perfect form and then do better. Yeah, but it's also your commitment to the sport and how much you practise. You might be naturally gifted in the same way anybody can be naturally gifted, say, at music or such, but if you are not putting the work into actually doing it, which makes you an athlete, which is why people become athletes and so good at it, then you're not going to be great at anything. So it doesn't matter if somebody might be like, naturally good.

Katie (Host) | 00:33:42 to 00:34:00
See, I always knew that I was meant to do rowing because my arms are fucking as long as they're in rangatang, but I never did it. And I'm not going to get that out there on a boat and be, like, the best person and become a star athlete because I haven't put the work into it. That's what it comes down to, it, the work that's put into it. It's not being 100% naturally gifted. That's what I'm doing.

Archie (Host) | 00:34:00 to 00:34:37
Talk about the natural giftedness. One sprinter could have had parents who's literally spent all their time, all their money, all the efforts, getting them all the training, taking them to all the different meets every weekend, and that kind of stuff gonna be faster than a kid who hasn't had any of that. Cause they're gonna have all the techniques, the stamina and so on. Point number two, real world competition in Connecticut, where debates have flared over fairness, cisgender girls have consistently competed on par with or better than transgender competitors. This challenges the notion that trans athletes automatically dominate in their categories.

Katie (Host) | 00:34:37 to 00:34:51
Oh, do you know what also comes into play with it as well that you kind of gripped on? Is that your passion in it and having the drive, because you know how we've always. We've all seen these sporting movies, and it's just like, don't lose hope. You've got to have the drive. You've got to have the passion.

Katie (Host) | 00:34:51 to 00:34:56
You've got to have everything. Like cool runnings. Sure. Jamaican bobsled. I was just going to say, is that the jamaican bobsled team?

Katie (Host) | 00:34:56 to 00:35:21
Because I'm like, I do know about that. Yes. But if you think about it, if you've got people supporting you, if you've got the uplifting spirit of it, you're going to do better. Trans people are already behind the ballgame because they're less likely to have people supporting them, but also they're more likely to be in their head because they're worried about discrimination. So they're already, like, three steps back from people who are competing at the same level because they're not going to have the sport.

Katie (Host) | 00:35:21 to 00:35:45
They're going to have the knowledge of discrimination. So you're fighting spirit a lot of the time in every single factor of life is what's going to get you through shit. And if you can't have that because you're stuck with these other fucking psychological issues, it's always going to put you at the back burner yes. And so my last point in this myth is a scientific perspective from a doctor, Joshua D. Safer.

Archie (Host) | 00:35:45 to 00:36:12
He emphasises that a person's genetic makeup and internal and external reproductive anatomy are not useful indicators of athletic performance for trans women who meet NCAA standards. There's no scientific basis to treat their physiological characteristics differently from those of cisgender women. There's no scientific basis. So there's just some of the factual breakdowns. But of course, because we are having a discussion and argument, we're gonna look at some counter arguments.

Archie (Host) | 00:36:12 to 00:36:28
Most of these come from that report that I told you about, the fair, playful women. I'd like to point out that I did read the entire report and there was no statistics or doctors or experts or scientific references to back up what they were saying in this report. There was nothing. Even in the back. There was no citations or references.

Katie (Host) | 00:36:28 to 00:36:36
Who wrote the report? The fair play for women? Whatever this. It's kind of like. I'm assuming it's a group of women who've created this document.

Katie (Host) | 00:36:36 to 00:36:48
Like a committee, I think so. It's in the UK. Also in this report, they keep referring to transgender women as male participation, which is really, really frustrating. So if you are going to read that report, that's just misinformed. That's fucking disgusting.

Archie (Host) | 00:36:48 to 00:36:59
But that just shows you it's very discrimination and where they're coming from with no reference. So I don't think there's a report. But you can call anything a report. Pretty much it's just the document set up. Pretty much.

Archie (Host) | 00:36:59 to 00:37:24
It was pretty documented. Advocates for female only sports argue that it's essential for fairness, safety and meaningful competition, that separating sports by sex enhances competitive equity and encourages female participation. Recent guidance from the UK Sports Council equality group challenges these views. They conclude that allowing males to participate in female sports categories compromises fairness despite testosterone suppression. So that was an exact quote from that document.

Archie (Host) | 00:37:24 to 00:37:36
So that's not how we would look at them. They're not males participating in a female sport. They are transgender women. But throughout this document, again, that is what they. You know what's so funny is because they're so foreign to me.

Katie (Host) | 00:37:36 to 00:37:49
Someone referring to transgender. Trans individuals like that, I literally was just like, why are these men getting hormone suppression? Like, I wonder why. They must have some medical reason. Well, don't refer to trans people in an appropriate way.

Katie (Host) | 00:37:49 to 00:37:59
That's just wrong. That's just incorrect. Educate yourself, you fucking twit. Yeah, so it was really hard to read this report in. Quotation marks, the second point.

Archie (Host) | 00:37:59 to 00:38:13
So impact on female athletes. There's growing concerns among female athletes about the inclusion of trans identifying males, which is not who they are. Again, no. So they've got all the language wrong in women's sports, not trans identity identifying males. In women's sport, it is trans women.

Archie (Host) | 00:38:13 to 00:38:24
Stop saying that they're male females because. Trans identifying males is actually a trans man. Yes. Which is different because that's assigned female at birth, potentially. And then, like, so they're not using the correct language.

Katie (Host) | 00:38:24 to 00:38:38
Correct language. So they're. They're like, okay, they're using trans, but in the wrong context. But they said that many feel silenced or intimidated when expressing their concerns, fearing repercussion from sports governing bodies. And their last point, there is cultural and personal considerations.

Archie (Host) | 00:38:38 to 00:38:50
So female only spaces in sports also resonate deeply for women who have experienced male violence or seek environments free from gender based discrimination. These aren't men. Right? They're women. So maybe, like, off your trot.

Archie (Host) | 00:38:50 to 00:39:24
So critics argue that trans men retain significant physical advantages over cis women, particularly in strength, power, and endurance, even after transitioning, which is not true once your hormones have been suppressed to a certain degree that, you know, matches guidelines, all that stuff. The whole thing is they've forgotten with trans women, if you're on hormones, you're on hormones because you're wanting to present more, like, have more feminine characteristics. Yes. So you're increasing your hormones. You're increasing your oestrogen in this term, or oestrogen, progesterone, such things.

Katie (Host) | 00:39:25 to 00:39:51
I'm not a specialist in this area. I'm not an endocrinologist, but it's one of those things. You're increasing your hormones within the normal levels that you would expect of somebody who is the same age range of the same, like a female assigned at birth, if we're looking for trans women, or, like, that would be what you're looking at. So, like, it doesn't make any fucking sense what they're saying. If they actually talked to anybody, rather than just having opinions based on nothing.

Archie (Host) | 00:39:51 to 00:40:01
It was basically, the report was just basically a massive opinion piece. They're like, I don't understand you, therefore I hate you. That's what it is. It's literally like, ugh, mean girl. That's the thing, you know?

Archie (Host) | 00:40:01 to 00:40:11
And people have. We've mentioned it time and time again. People are scared of what they don't know, and they just want to attack what they don't know. And so that's what's really happening in this instance. So the study that we're talking about before.

Archie (Host) | 00:40:11 to 00:40:33
So there's a study, and let's talk about this. A first of its kind study compared the strength, power and aerobic capacity of trans athletes with cis athletes. It involved 23 trans women, twelve trans men, 21 cis women and 19 cis men. And they underwent a whole bunch of performance tests under laboratory conditions. The key results found with cardiovascular performance.

Archie (Host) | 00:40:34 to 00:40:57
In certain cardiovascular tests, trans women performed worse than cis women. Trans women were found to have less lower body strength compared to cis women. Decreased lung function in trans women compared to cis women. Really interesting when you're looking at Leah Thomas and you need a higher lung function for swimming in that kind of stuff. So that's quite an interesting look at trans women's bone density was equivalent to that of cis women, suggesting similar muscle strength linked to bone density.

Katie (Host) | 00:40:57 to 00:41:14
Yeah. So in the conclusion there, these findings challenge the assumption of inherent advantages, showing that trans women may not possess the presumed superior physical attributes compared to cis women. That is put out everywhere. I'm not gonna lie. Before I looked into this years ago, when I saw this, I was like, is it fair?

Archie (Host) | 00:41:14 to 00:41:25
I'm not sure. And then all the documents say, actually yes, it is. It's cause of the false news that's put around, that's the problem. Bloody fake news. It is?

Katie (Host) | 00:41:25 to 00:41:55
Absolutely. It's all of the idea behind it of what they, of what they want to perceive, they're saying. And it's like we were saying before, it's the fear associated with it. But if people actually educated themselves, like you've looked at this and you've realised that everything that people say is not based, unfortunately, on scientific knowledge or not based on discussing with experts about this. Also, by the way, do you know what aerobic means?

Archie (Host) | 00:41:55 to 00:42:12
No, I just thought it was like, you know, like aerobics, like flips and like that kind of stuff. That's so funny. You're so cute. I was just like, because you mentioned it, and I don't think generally people actually understand what aerobic or anaerobic is if they aren't in the healthcare field. So I just wanted to go into it a little bit because there is a little bit of a difference.

Katie (Host) | 00:42:12 to 00:42:20
It's nothing to do with the actual aerobics. Like aerobics. I thought it was like, you know, the robots and the ribbons and that's why. No. Okay, cool.

Katie (Host) | 00:42:20 to 00:43:05
So I'm just going to quickly google this just so you guys can know what the terms are easily, so you don't have to worry about from the medical's perspective. But basically, aerobic activity involves continuous movement full by oxygen from the air you breathe. So what that means, in layman's terms, is it's low intensity. It's not putting your body into a stage that it's going into anaerobic activity, which means that it's more of a high intensity and you're not having the supply and demand of oxygen. So say that you're doing something really fast and your body isn't able to compete with it in oxygen supply and demand, and it goes into this anaerobic state, whereas the aerobic is more or less intensity, and it's got all the nutrients are there.

Katie (Host) | 00:43:05 to 00:43:18
Really cool. Interesting. And then also, like, I'm not going to go too much into the next myth because we kind of know that everybody talks about this. Transgender men are not real men, and transgender women are nothing real women. And we've spoken about this all throughout.

Archie (Host) | 00:43:18 to 00:43:27
Transgender people are who they say they are. I think that's as far as we need to go with that myth. I think that's a strong trans men. Are men, trans women are women. That is, let's leave it as that.

Archie (Host) | 00:43:27 to 00:43:48
You can say that it impacts on sports and that kind of thing, but we've already talked about it. Really doesn't as long as the hormones have been repressed to a certain level, but really doesn't even matter because I had more testosterone on my body prior to transitioning. So the last myth before we conclude up on this, and the thing is, I've tried to. I've cut down hours and hours of stuff. My original document was, like 46 pages.

Katie (Host) | 00:43:48 to 00:43:55
Nice. Now that's a report. Yeah, I've cut it down to 15. I'm going to link. I think I've got, like 20 or so links.

Archie (Host) | 00:43:55 to 00:44:11
If anybody wants to go down that deep dive and have a look, even there's, like, medical documents and journals and all that kind of stuff as well. And there's so much reading, and I thought this was the easiest way to go through it. So the last myth is trans students need separate teams. So they're saying create a trans category. Have you not seen follow up thing?

Katie (Host) | 00:44:12 to 00:44:20
I'm not following sports, honey. Well, it's not on sports. It's been online just like, well, if. We had enough trans people, we could have a team. You could, but there's not enough people around to play.

Katie (Host) | 00:44:20 to 00:44:27
And maybe I don't want to play with all. We're not all friends every day. But then you're also segregation. Yeah, well, literally. Literally.

Archie (Host) | 00:44:27 to 00:44:48
Segregation. Segregation. The belief that transgender women and girls have an inherent advantage in sport overlooks the actual hardship they endure. According to the US Trans survey, 22% of transgender women were harassed so severely in school due to their gender identity that they had to leave. Additionally, 10% were expelled because of their perceived gender.

Katie (Host) | 00:44:48 to 00:45:03
What the fuck? Let's look at some of factual breakdowns. Fact point number one, discrimination and exclusion. Women and girls who are transgender face discrimination and violence that often make it difficult to stay in schools, let alone excel in sports. Yeah.

Archie (Host) | 00:45:03 to 00:45:36
The idea that they have an advantage because they are trans ignores these real and significant challenges. According to doctor Atkins, when a school or athletic organisation denies transgender students the ability to participate equally in athletics because they are transgender, that condones, reinforce and affirms the transgender students social status as outsiders or misfits who don't belong, who deserve the hostility that they experience from peers. Yeah. So by you not allowing them to participate, you're no better than everybody else. Yeah.

Katie (Host) | 00:45:36 to 00:45:53
In a school setting up precedence. Yes. It's setting a precedence that these people should be isolated, in which if you're trying to cultivate inclusivity, which is what you should be doing, and appreciating diversity, then don't be excluding anybody. What the fuck is this about? Right?

Katie (Host) | 00:45:54 to 00:46:05
Ugh. Everyone is different. Literally. Literally everybody is an individual. It's like otherwise you're gonna literally have to get every single athlete at this Olympics to do tests and strict to your hormones and blood.

Katie (Host) | 00:46:05 to 00:46:21
Yeah, but anyway, if you're gonna discriminate against one person, you're gonna discriminate against everybody and hate everybody equally. Then that will be fine. That's never gonna happen. Be the grunge .2. Rights to participation trans people have the same right to participate in sports as anyone else.

Archie (Host) | 00:46:21 to 00:46:50
Carroll explains that for the past nine years, this is doctor Carroll. From before, transgender athletes have been able to compete on NCAA teams consistent with their gender identity without disrupting women's collegiate sports. Excluding trans people from any space or activity is harmful, particularly for trans youth. A trans high school student, for example, may experience detrimental effects to their physical and emotional wellbeing when they are pushed out of affirming spaces and communities just because you don't think they belong there. Point number three.

Archie (Host) | 00:46:50 to 00:47:19
Harmful effects of exclusion. So excluding transgender individuals from sports and other activities is harmful, particularly for trans youth. Doctor Deanna Adkins highlights that denying transgender students the ability to participate equally in athletics reinforces their status as outsiders and can lead to detrimental effects on their physical and emotional wellbeing. Lindsay Hecox, a transgender athlete, expresses this sentiment simply, I just want to run. That's a hard thing it's as simple as it is.

Katie (Host) | 00:47:19 to 00:47:59
It's also like, if you think about it, is that being on hormones affects so many different parts of your life, potentially. And like when you went on hormones and you had the serious consideration that it's going to affect your voice. And being a musician is such a big part of your personality that you had to weigh out whether you would go on hormones and live out your true authentic self and potentially not be able to participate as a musician. People potentially having those thoughts as well, trans individuals, and being like, well, what? I run, or I play soccer, or I do these athletics, and this is who I am because I've always been good at this and it's what I love.

Katie (Host) | 00:47:59 to 00:48:47
And having to make the choice between living their authentic selves or doing something that they love and then potentially either not going through with hormone replacement therapy if they want to, or having to come off it and then having that dysphoria, that itself is such psychological torture that people don't understand if they've never been friends with anybody who's trans or they've never actually educated themselves or what happens to trans people when they transition. These are things that general people don't have to go through and don't understand. Yeah. And so with a transgender athlete, they're already carrying all this extra baggage before they even step on the racetrack, before they even step in the lane. And people forget that.

Archie (Host) | 00:48:47 to 00:48:59
And they only see the outward of, oh, well, they used to be a man, so they've got to be stronger. And then you're building. You're buying into these old stereotypes and it's time to get over them. Yeah. It's like that whole thing of.

Katie (Host) | 00:48:59 to 00:49:27
And in a very different way. But you know how when somebody is disabled. Yes. And they use either a wheelchair or some other kind of immemility aid, and then people are just like, oh, you are so strong for doing what you are doing. Nobody does that to trans people, even though they've got, like, different disadvantages, but also, like, saying that to somebody doesn't make them an inspiration for what they've had to overcome, because, like, everyone's journey is different.

Katie (Host) | 00:49:27 to 00:49:45
Don't assume people's journeys, don't assume people's trials and tribulations without either getting to know them or educating yourself or that kind of stuff. Don't think that that's going to be either a compliment. What are we doing? It just fucking baffling. It's absolutely baffling .4.

Archie (Host) | 00:49:45 to 00:50:19
Broad impact of discrimination so believing and perpetuating myths about trans athletes not only hurts transgender individuals, but harms society as a whole. Discrimination in sports mirrors broader societal attitudes that contribute to the exclusion and marginalisation of trans people. Women and girls who are trans face discrimination and violence that makes it difficult to even stay in school. So the fact that you're also adding on this discrimination and really excluding them from being a part of society, you're basically telling them that you don't want them to be a part of your society at all. So let's look at some counterpoints, because, you know, it's got to be a fair and just argument.

Archie (Host) | 00:50:19 to 00:50:42
Physical advantages of male puberty hormone therapy can significantly reduce testosterone levels in transgender women, aligning them more closely with those of cisgender women. Real world data shows no consistent evidence of overwhelming advantages in competitive sports. So the counterpoint is the physical advantages of male puberty, but there is none. Yeah. Then another one was undermining fairness and the fairness of women wanting to participate in that kind of stuff.

Archie (Host) | 00:50:43 to 00:51:11
Inclusive policies developed by organisations like the NCAA ensure fair competition while respecting gender. Identity, which is good anyway, because you're ensuring fair competition. And some people have said that it's going to discourage other women to participate if you have transgender women in that sport. But there's no substantial evidence to back up this claim that having transgender women in your sport discourages cisgender women from wanting to be there. And why would it discourage, like, what's the point of discouraging?

Katie (Host) | 00:51:11 to 00:51:29
You're not having any effect on other individuals. So really, like, if you think it's discouraging, that's more an issue with you and your discrimination and your transphobia. And like I said, it's really the only real document I could find was the fair women document. So this is. Most of this is coming from there?

Katie (Host) | 00:51:29 to 00:51:48
Yeah. Talking about safety issues, like, you know, that having someone who's stronger and that kind of stuff. But hormone therapy often reduces muscle mass and strength, and transgender women aligning them more closely with assist gender women. So safety protocols can mitigate risks in most sports and you just have to follow the protocols. What kind of safety are we looking at?

Archie (Host) | 00:51:48 to 00:51:52
I don't know. This is what they've. It's just these kind of things, like, it's not safe, they're stronger. You should do what? Right.

Archie (Host) | 00:51:53 to 00:52:07
Believing and perpetuating myths and misconceptions about trans athletes is harmful. So think about that during this olympic period, because it's about to start and you're going to hear this debate. It's going to be up all on your news feeds. And if you're not sure, listen to this. Maybe you can chat to us about it.

Archie (Host) | 00:52:07 to 00:52:21
Leave your comments, let us know what you're thinking. Denying trans people the right to participate is discrimination. And it doesn't just hurt trans people, it hurts us all. Yeah. If you're allowing exclusion in one facet, where does the exclusion stop?

Katie (Host) | 00:52:21 to 00:52:36
Yeah. Transgender athletes have the same rights to play sports as anybody else. Excluding them is harmful and reinforces social status as outsiders. Denying trans people the right to participate harms everyone. Where could the bans on transgender people lead?

Archie (Host) | 00:52:36 to 00:52:53
If you're gonna go down that route? Yeah, absolutely. And this has been a hard episode to. It's not the most smooth episode that I've done before, but there's just so many parts and there's so many working parts to try to tell you everything. It would be a four, five, six hour episode.

Katie (Host) | 00:52:53 to 00:53:14
Yeah. And I don't have the mental capacity or energy to do that. This is almost the spark notes of transgender athletes in sport. I swear there's like 20 links that you guys can go through, but this is just kind of a spark notes of the information that I've found. And I did try to be as equal as possible, but there actually wasn't a lot, which I was actually really surprised.

Archie (Host) | 00:53:14 to 00:53:43
There actually wasn't a lot of documents supporting the. Against transgender athletes, which I found really, really interesting because I thought I was going to be overwhelmed. The documents that did, they were kind of just news articles and they were just kind of opinion pieces. And there was nothing that actually was scientific where the scientific and the journals and the medical journals actually was in favour of transgender athletes competing in sports. So before you listen to social media, before you listen to certain media, that's who say that it's not fair, etcetera.

Archie (Host) | 00:53:43 to 00:54:13
Do your research first and listen to our podcast. And listen to our podcast. It's not the best episode, but I've tried my best. You've done really well. And considering having to go through all that documentation, I definitely appreciate the fact that it would have been really hard to hear people's negative comments that are so unfounded and so false in their accusations based around no education or any data at all that you've done really well and research.

Archie (Host) | 00:54:13 to 00:54:38
And I really do feel for trans women because it's kind of, in all these documents, they kind of forget that trans men exist and they are competing in sports and they are competing in competitive sports. It's like, people don't have a problem with transgender athletes. They have a problem with transgender women athletes. Yeah, that's fair. Which means that when you want to become a professional soccer player again, I'll never be professional.

Archie (Host) | 00:54:38 to 00:54:54
I was pretty, I was average. I was good, but I was average. As we wrap up, it's crucial to recognise the complexities involved in the debate over transgender athletes in sport. It's so complex. It's about balancing inclusivity with fairness and it requires thoughtful consideration of diverse perspectives.

Archie (Host) | 00:54:54 to 00:55:20
It's not just about trans women and cis women. It's about the complexities of the human body. It's about the athleticism that is ingrained in people and the training and the hours that's given to a sport and so on. It's not as black and white. And I guess the old thing is, don't ever forget that the person that you're talking about is an individual and they are a person living their life just trying to do the best that they can do with the hand that they're dealt.

Archie (Host) | 00:55:20 to 00:55:34
I hope you've liked this episode. If you've liked this episode, don't forget to rate, review and subscribe on your favourite listening platform. Absolutely. And engage with us and chat to us on our instagram. Or send us an email on letsbeperfectlyqueerpodmail.com.

Katie (Host) | 00:55:34 to 00:55:42
we love to hear from you. If you agreed with us, let us know. If you didnt agree with us, let us know. Were always up for educated debate. Educate yourself.

Archie (Host) | 00:55:43 to 00:55:47
Well, until next time, I hope that we have been perfectly clear.

Archie (Host) | 00:55:56 to 00:55:57
Let's be perfectly clear.