15. Queer icons

Episode 15 of Let's Be Perfectly Queer is here, and in this episode, Archie and Katie dive into the fascinating world of Queer Icons. Join us as we discuss what makes someone a Queer Icon and explore the contributions and impacts of these icons to the LGBTQ+ community.

We start the episode talking about the mischievous Odie, our adorable little dog, before delving into the topic at hand. Follow the LBPQ podcast instagram for more Odie content.

Throughout the episode, we debate and share our thoughts on various gay icons, including Cher, Madonna, George Takei, Taylor Swift, Kylie Minogue, and more. We also discuss the impact these celebrities have had on the Queer community, their advocacy efforts, and their representation in mainstream media.

As we conclude the discussion on gay icons, we emphasise the importance of allies and representation in media. We also invite you to share your favourite gay icons and engage with us on social media.

Tune in to this episode of Let's Be Perfectly Queer for an insightful and engaging conversation about the vibrant world of queer icons and their influence on the LGBTQ+ community. Don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe to the podcast for more thought-provoking content.

Transcript

Katie (Host) | 00:00:04 to 00:00:14
And we are recording. Welcome to let's Be Perfectly Queer, a. Queer podcast creating space to talk about all things queer. My name is Archie. And I'm Katie.

Archie (Host) | 00:00:14 to 00:00:30
And we are your hosts. We are questions of how you identify. Making answers to clarify whether you're queen or someone in between. Let's be perfectly clear. And today we're probably going to be doing a little bit of a shorter episode.

Katie (Host) | 00:00:30 to 00:00:37
We'll see how it goes. Small talks. It might be small talks are back yo. Maybe. We'll see.

Katie (Host) | 00:00:37 to 00:00:43
Might be small talks. We're small. No, I'm not small. Odie's small. That's basically it.

Katie (Host) | 00:00:43 to 00:00:51
We've got Odie in the camp with us today. Yep. Chilling. She was a bit of a menace in the last episode, kind of wandering around. Had to keep telling her to go back to her place.

Archie (Host) | 00:00:51 to 00:01:19
But she seemed to settle down now that she's ripped the shreds out of her eagle little plushie. And maybe she'll get a bit tired now and chill. By the end of our last recording, she was just sleeping and she does this really cute thing and maybe it's just because we're her parents, I'm not sure if that's why, but she's really cute anyway. But she does this thing that she mouths her toys and I'm making hand holding gestures is what I'm doing. So if you go watch the Instagram or stories, I'm sure it will pop up on there.

Katie (Host) | 00:01:19 to 00:01:27
But she kind of holds the toy with her hands and then she pause it and she mouths it and just like a little puppy. It's so beautiful. Granted, she's two years old. Nearly two years old. Nearly.

Katie (Host) | 00:01:27 to 00:01:34
We can't forget her birthday. Exactly. She's doing good things. Anyway, welcome back to another episode. This is episode 15.

Archie (Host) | 00:01:34 to 00:01:45
Or it could be small talks fire before we'll find out. This is the 15th time that we've sat down here and had chats. It is true. Yeah, exactly. We're going to be talking about queer icons.

Archie (Host) | 00:01:45 to 00:02:00
Queer icons. I know, exactly. I was looking through the things that we could talk about and I was like, why do I feel like this week? And I just wanted something a little bit lighthearted because I've often wondered what makes a queer icon? Because you don't have to be queer to be a queer icon.

Archie & Katie (Host) | 00:02:00 to 00:02:06
No. Like Lady Gaga. Yeah, exactly. Well, no, lady no, she is she's bisexual, isn't she? Yeah, she is.

Katie (Host) | 00:02:06 to 00:02:18
There are some other queer icons. Can I guess them? Yeah. Well, I was going to ask you. I was going to have a quick chat about the news because I just saw a couple of news stories that popped up in my head that I thought are actually really interesting.

Katie (Host) | 00:02:18 to 00:02:40
So we have our celebrity. There's a celebrity called Renee Rapp who was talking about internalised homophobia that she's experienced as well as coming out. And she was just like she was expressing how people can be so fucking mean. And I'm just like, it's still happening to this day and age. And granted, internalised homophobia is something that is very personal to each person and.

Archie (Host) | 00:02:40 to 00:03:21
How they for someone who doesn't understand what internalised homophobia is. Yes. So jumping back, we have noted in our previous episodes, but internalised homophobia is where you've got your values are so based and so ingrained in you, that being somebody part of the queer community is negative or is a bad thing. So it may not necessarily mean that outwardly that you think it's a bad thing, but it means that internally that there are things that you do that prevent you from being either open because you are scared of judgement or your own judgement. You're scared of how people are going to betray you or how people are going to act differently towards you, but also thinking that what you're doing as a queer person is negative.

Katie (Host) | 00:03:21 to 00:03:30
And that's the basis of internalised homophobia. We have talked about it previously. Listen to all of our other episodes, if you haven't already. All of them. Listen to them all.

Katie (Host) | 00:03:30 to 00:03:55
They're great. But I thought that was quite interesting, that still in this day and age, where people are generally quite open about their sexualities or open about their gender diversity, that this is something that still is happening. And she's quite young. I don't know how old she is, but it's something that's still popping out there. In the world of sport, there's UFC fighters Charles Radditch and Manuel Cape apologise for homophobic slurs, which I thought is good.

Katie (Host) | 00:03:55 to 00:04:15
I'm glad that we're in, even in wrestling, that there is something being outpaled to this homophobic, things that are happening and slurs that are happening. So I thought, that's good. Yeah, that is the slurs not so much, but the apologising I always appreciate. Especially considered to the last episode with all the negative news that's actually quite progressive. And the last little two things.

Katie (Host) | 00:04:15 to 00:04:43
One negative being that there was a former pastor has finally been jailed for eight years after killing the black trans woman, Kelly Stowe, which I thought, I'm glad that someone is finally actually getting. That'S been going for a while, hasn't it? It has been. It has, absolutely. And then last thing in culture news, which I thought was really good, is that Elliot Page, after filming a shirtless scene, said that he felt really liberated and he's never felt so free in this.

Katie (Host) | 00:04:43 to 00:04:55
Like, that's beautiful. Yeah, it's absolutely beautiful in that way that people can just feel mean. I wish I could release the nipples, but that's never going to be something part of my journey. Thank you very much. I remember the first time that you were shirtless in public and you were.

Archie (Host) | 00:04:55 to 00:05:04
Like, this feels so free. You and your designer chest out. My designer chest. I know. That's the best one.

Katie (Host) | 00:05:04 to 00:05:19
Chef's kiss. That's going to be great for editing later on. You're going to hate that later. I know. So, first of all, I'm going to ask you is, what do you think makes somebody a gay icon?

Archie (Host) | 00:05:19 to 00:05:54
For me, if I say gay icon, I think someone who's progressive and an ally or a part of the community, but it doesn't have to always be a part of the community, but someone who is there standing hand in hand and fighting for the rights of the queer community alongside everybody else. Yeah, it definitely is. It's definitely something that encapsures what we think of with our gay icons. I'm going to say gay or queer icons interchangeably, just because it's a very overarching when I talk about gay in this kind of perspective, as gay is generally quite a big umbrella term as queer is as well. So gay icons definitely is supporting the queer community.

Katie (Host) | 00:05:54 to 00:06:16
I don't think you can really get away with being a queer icon and being like, ballies, we don't like you. You've definitely got to support the queer community. When it comes down to it, being authentic is a huge thing. If you look at all the gay icons, they are very authentic in the message that they portray in their music or as an actress or actor. They're always incredibly authentic in who they are and how they support people.

Katie (Host) | 00:06:16 to 00:06:47
If you look at them, they're always the kind of people who are large advocates and very positive in change in the world, which I think is such an important thing as well. So they're not just being positive for one spectre, they're being they're very like antiracism, anti homophobia, anti everything. They're such a positive outlook in the world, which I think is great. It's all empowerment, inclusivity. And often it will be incorporated with the charitable work that they do as well, which I'll talk about a little bit because I know that we look at a lot of our celebrities these days.

Katie (Host) | 00:06:48 to 00:07:15
As either actors, actresses or the singers, songwriters, all that kind of stuff. But there is a lot of work that they do behind the scenes for the world that often doesn't actually get publicised as much, which is incredibly important when it comes to our gay icons because we are a bit picky and choosy by who we love. So I want you to talk to me if you could choose five icons. Only five? Okay, you can do ten.

Katie (Host) | 00:07:15 to 00:07:21
All right, give me your top ten gay icons. I don't know. Top ten. I'd say Lady Gaga, Harry Stars. Yeah.

Archie (Host) | 00:07:22 to 00:07:24
Elton John, Boy George.

Archie (Host) | 00:07:27 to 00:07:39
Damn it. I was thinking when you think now, can't think. So funny, all those people that you've said are queer or non identified. Pink. I don't know what Pink identifies as.

Archie (Host) | 00:07:39 to 00:07:50
No, but I'm just interesting. Yeah, pink. The thing is, I was really annoyed because I'm really annoyed because as I was sitting here, I was like, yeah, I can rattle them off. And now that jarred me. Let me go again.

Archie (Host) | 00:07:50 to 00:08:08
So definitely. Lady Gaga, Pink, Harry Styles, boy George, Elton John think about some older style ones as well. I'm getting there. I was going to say Cher, Celine Dion, she's very popular with we have. A lot of gay icons.

Archie (Host) | 00:08:08 to 00:08:17
Adele what is that, eight? I'd say, you know what? No, she's not really I was going to say it and we can discuss it. Drew Barrymore. Okay.

Archie & Katie (Host) | 00:08:17 to 00:08:26
Yeah. Drew Barrymore she comes under what we. Were talking about before, doesn't she? Like a big advocate, very authentic. That's it, they're authentic and that kind of thing.

Archie (Host) | 00:08:26 to 00:08:47
And if I had to choose one more, one more, trying to find one that's not queer, do you know what I mean? In my mind, that's not queer because I can shout out a whole bunch of that are queer, but I'm wanting to find another one that's not queer. No, can't think of it. You got a fair few that are on my list, to be honest, because you got Cher, Madonna. See, I would disagree with that.

Archie (Host) | 00:08:47 to 00:09:11
Now. She is so problematic at the moment. I would have said Madonna had it been ten years ago, but stuff that I've been seeing online is very problematic and so I wouldn't it's funny because. I still include her, because the voguing element is still such a large element of the queer community, even though that's evolved into a whole different thing on its own. I still class her.

Archie (Host) | 00:09:11 to 00:09:27
RuPaul. I know RuPaul, yeah, RuPaul would be one. He was always number five every time I've looked up which gay icons. RuPaul is number five. And I find it really interesting because in the top five they generally give cher Madonna, Kylie Minogue, Judy Garland and RuPaul.

Archie (Host) | 00:09:27 to 00:09:34
Yeah. And then Elaborating on that list. Dolly Parton. Oh, yeah. Forgot about Dolly.

Archie & Katie (Host) | 00:09:34 to 00:09:41
Oh, yeah. And Miley Cyrus. Yeah. By alternative as well. Liza Minnelli, barbara Streisand.

Archie (Host) | 00:09:41 to 00:09:49
Oh yeah, I didn't think about Barbara Streisand. Yeah, she's a big one, big friend of Barb's. And then but not so much anymore. So it's hard. Like these are old.

Katie (Host) | 00:09:49 to 00:10:22
Yeah, these are all old style ones. And the reason that I chose more old style ones is when I think of gay icon these days, there are a lot of gay icons, which I think is absolutely bloody brilliant, because I would look at a lot of the actresses, celebrities, actors, singers, a lot of them out there. And like when you were saying, you could list off a whole heap of new ones because of the way that the world is. And when you are promoting an authentic voice that's very inclusive, it's going to incorporate everybody, which is absolutely beautiful. So we've got so many.

Katie (Host) | 00:10:22 to 00:10:43
I wanted to look at the past ones and been like, why specifically the gay icons in the past were there? Because it's looking at it in terms of when being part of the queer community was a little bit more taboo and how that actually evolved. So it's such an interesting look back on. Oh, and I also have. I always forget how to say his last taki.

Archie (Host) | 00:10:44 to 00:10:54
Oh, Takai. Takai. George Takai. I think that's how you say his name who was Sulu in Star Trek. He is such a brilliant person, so fabulous.

Katie (Host) | 00:10:54 to 00:11:04
I love everything about him. I love the vibe that he gives off. I love his smile. I just love how his interviews are the most interesting interviews. I love his interviews.

Archie (Host) | 00:11:04 to 00:11:23
You never know where they're going to go. They're just brilliant. You don't his interviews just by itself, are quite entertaining. And he also has done a lot for advocating for the LGBTQ plus community. And just like, his presence and it also mentions his presence on social media as well as the social discussions he's been involved in, is really important.

Katie (Host) | 00:11:23 to 00:11:36
And I think I put him in the same kind of vein as sir in McKellen, but a little bit more for George because he's just absolutely brilliant. He's a legend. I know. He just radiates, like, oh, I want to speak. He's just like a happy bubble of joy.

Archie (Host) | 00:11:36 to 00:11:43
That's the best way to explain him. He so is. He so is so first we're going to talk about the Queen of all. Yes. Cher.

Archie (Host) | 00:11:43 to 00:12:01
Cher. I love cher. I always call her like, that's what I grew up calling her Cher when I grew up. It's when you never get used to when you see a name so much. She was, I think, my third album, my first one being Shania Twain, my second one being Enrique IG Glaciers, which I think was just absolutely fabulous.

Katie (Host) | 00:12:01 to 00:12:34
And my third one being Cher. And I feel like I'm a very well rounded person for those three people. And she has just always been somebody that I've also really envisioned. And if you look back in her story about how her life was and how she was actually quite an introvert, and the combination of when she ended up finding Sunny and her story behind that and now her son Chez as well, is like, there's so much behind that. And the relationship that they actually have as well has been quite there's a big story behind that, which I'm not going to be talking about today, is so interesting.

Katie (Host) | 00:12:35 to 00:13:04
So she is the icon of the LGBTQ plus community because of her music, her style, her persona. She's a triple threat. It's not just one thing. It's everything whole encompassed, which is why when you look at icons, it's like all those different things together, but it's really resonated within the queer community and making her such, like, a Cherished figure. If you talk to people about Cher, whenever you go to a queer event, there's always going to be a certain number of songs there that will hit with your gay icons and there's always Believe by Cher.

Katie (Host) | 00:13:05 to 00:13:22
And it's just one of those things that's an absolute bopper. And I don't know if anyone can sing the tone of it, but it's like out there and everyone's trying their bloody best. It's the absolutely beautiful thing. So with her songs such as Believe Strong Enough, If I Could Turn Back Time, they've all really become anthems. I'm sure you're bopping along to them in your head.

Archie (Host) | 00:13:22 to 00:14:12
Every single one of my head. It's one of those things that they feature those kind of topics of resilience, self empowerment and love, which are things that have definitely been grasped by the queer community and being like, I can believe in myself. I'm strong enough to do things. And it's a reoccurring topic through a lot of these gay icons, is having these power ballads where you can sing your heart away and it brings resonance between the songwriter to the listener and being like, I am here and I'm on that journey too, and bringing that closeness, which is always really beautiful. Apart from her music and what she's actually done in that kind of space for bringing people forward, she's actually been a really big advocate for the LGBTQIA plus community and using her platform to speak out against discrimination and inequality, which I think is absolutely brilliant.

Katie (Host) | 00:14:13 to 00:14:54
So she's consistently supported policies and initiatives to promote this equality for queer individuals. And it's always been incredibly visible in the way that she's actually supported queer artists in her performances, whether that be like in her concerts or in her music videos, she's always had representation there to normalise these identities and the relationships in mainstream media. I mean, you see it a lot in today as like when you talk about our celebrities that are out there, like Taylor Swift, who are using a lot of trans social media people or trans celebrities. Yes, Taylor Swift had a trans actor in their music video. Yeah, absolutely.

Katie (Host) | 00:14:54 to 00:15:09
And it follows on from what our icons have been doing in the past and being like, let's show these normalising factors. And then you see it with our new icons today. And it's nice seeing that progression that it's so important to have the representation there, because, like, share.

Katie (Host) | 00:15:17 to 00:16:03
But if you think about it, it's the same kind of swallowing following, it's the same kind of following the cult following that Cher has that Taylor Swift. I mean, we're looking at different greater demographic now because of how people are fanatics and ultimate stands and all that kind of stuff. But it's the same kind of thing that if you see that normalising factor in your icons, it's really important. She also had really big support for the HIV and AIDS awareness and research, so she's raised funds and various organisations that have actually influenced the destigmatization of the disease, which is really important back in the day. Like if you see where Cher was actually at her most prominent, as well as how she continued, she was such a big voice for that and such a big advocate.

Katie (Host) | 00:16:03 to 00:16:35
And she's always been somebody who's kind of been out of the box, which I think if you look at all the icons that we're going to be talking about, they're all in the same kind of it's funny, I'm talking about out of the box being the same kind of category, but it's that way of like they're striving their own path of acceptance, which is basically what we're all trying to do as well. And I think that that's how people really connect to them and I think that's beautiful. Apart from that, you see share in drag culture. I have seen so many things. If you watch Many A Share, many.

Katie (Host) | 00:16:35 to 00:17:13
A Share on RuPaul Drag Race, I can't even remember one of my favourite drag artists and I can't remember their name, did the most amazing drag impression on RuPaul's and it was just absolutely brilliant. And I feel like it's that iconic thing of also, like, you see a lot of Halloween things as like, Share, like the long hair, the tight suits. It's just absolutely amazing. She's one of those people that also makes a great ally. And no matter what, if you're an icon, you're definitely going to have ally statuses, that she's there for her friends and she supports people not only in the limelight, if you get what I mean.

Katie (Host) | 00:17:13 to 00:17:49
She's also doing it in her personal life. So it's like that reflectiveness between the two, which I think that having that connectivity between the both is so important because there's nothing quite like and you see it in some artists today where they'll say one thing and then you see things pop up later on and how they've actually treated people and it's always really disappointing. The next one I'll talk about, which you mentioned as well, lady Gaga. So I find that Lady Gaga with she really is a gay icon for many reasons. Why do you specifically think why does she pop into your mind specifically?

Archie (Host) | 00:17:49 to 00:18:12
She's always been a big supporter of the queer community. Through her concerts, through whenever she's doing massive speeches, she always talks about being an ally or just talks about how beautiful it is to just be yourself. And even she's still doing that today. And one of her songs, Born This Way, became a massive queer icon song, basically, for me. That's why she's definitely a gay icon.

Katie (Host) | 00:18:12 to 00:18:20
Did you know that she actually has a Born This Way foundation? Yes. Isn't it brilliant? Do you know what it majors in? No.

Archie (Host) | 00:18:20 to 00:18:38
I knew about the Born This Way Foundation, but I'm not sure. So it focuses on mental health support, anti bullying effects and the LGBTQ plus youth empowerment. That's very cool. Yeah, it's so cool. So apart from that, she also has been very vocal, like you were saying, in her queer activism.

Katie (Host) | 00:18:38 to 00:18:58
And on multiple occasions, she's very much made a platform for herself and to talk towards the rights of people part of the LGBTQ plus community. So it's almost in a way that it's very open with her activism. She's very like her songs are excellent. I was born this way. She's promoting people.

Katie (Host) | 00:18:58 to 00:19:26
She's had people of all different diversity of genders and sexuality. Part of her group, whether that be her dance group or the people that she hangs out with or all that kind of stuff, I think it's absolutely beautiful. And she's very much a person who's a boundary pusher. I feel like looking at sher even though she's outside of the box with Lady Gaga, there's always something new. She's always trying to and no matter what she does, even though it's eclectic, she's always trying to make a better future.

Katie (Host) | 00:19:26 to 00:19:43
She's always trying to promote herself for the best. And again, she is such an authentic person. You see that even though she's adapted through the years, like her relationships that she's had with people as well as I think her relationship with Frank Sinatra is the most beautiful. I love that. I love the whole we got to see a different side of her.

Archie (Host) | 00:19:43 to 00:19:55
When she started doing those duets with Frank Sinatra, it was so frank Sinatra. Not Frank Sinatra. Oh, because he's dead, I can see. What he looks like.

Archie (Host) | 00:19:57 to 00:20:01
I was like, Frank Sinatra? No. Something bennett. Bennett. Tony Bennett.

Archie (Host) | 00:20:01 to 00:20:08
Yeah, I knew it. Tony Bennett. Yeah, yeah, I'm going to resend that. Frank Sinatra is dead. He's the same vibe.

Katie (Host) | 00:20:08 to 00:20:15
That's who I think of. I don't know why I automatically put them in the same box. Frank Sinatra. Not Frank Sinatra. Yeah.

Archie (Host) | 00:20:15 to 00:20:58
When you say Frank Sinatra, I'm like, Wait a minute. Tony Bennett and Lady Gaga, if you've ever seen any of those videos, they're the most heartwarming things ever, where it's just their relationship and how much she cares for them. And even with his Alzheimer's or his cognitive processing disorder, whichever one he's got, it still transcends that, and it's just really beautiful. Lady Gaga. I mean, apart from also using her platform to advertise for queer rights, she's also specifically been a huge advocate for trans rights and visibility and spoken out against discrimination faced by trans individuals and emphasised the importance of inclusivity, which I think is incredibly important in this space, specifically with everything that's been happening with the US.

Katie (Host) | 00:20:58 to 00:21:34
So it's so beautiful. She's also really been active with supporting political candidates and initiatives to champion LGBTQ rights and equality. So she's endorsed policies and legislations that provide inclusivity and acceptance, which is so big because I feel like a lot of celebrities, even though they talk the talk and they're just like creating a platform by actually supporting politicians can be incredibly controversial. And a lot of the time, people can lose following secondary to that. So it's so beautiful to see somebody actually being like, no, I'm going to go forward.

Katie (Host) | 00:21:34 to 00:21:58
I'm going to actually be like, this is what I believe in. I believe in this so much that we need to take this to Parliament, we need to take this to the government and actually change things. The next person I've got is Kylie Minogue as a gay icon. I reckon back in the day, I think it was more the songs and stuff, but I don't know what did she do much for the LGBT community? Well, she has been so she has had representation of queer people in her videos.

Katie (Host) | 00:21:58 to 00:22:23
She has collaborated with queer artists, designers, creative people. Throughout her career, she has spoken about LGBTQI plus rights. Okay. And she does make contributions to LGBTQ charities and organisations and which have helped funded initiatives that have benefited the community. So she has done things and the people that she surrounds herself.

Katie (Host) | 00:22:23 to 00:22:55
So she's got many queer friends as well, which is beautiful. I think that she's one of those people who tend to fly under the radar. And even though her bops are very queer and celebrated by the queer community, and no one will forget those hot pants, and I've seen many a gay man in hot pants, which has been beautiful. It's funny because her personality is very introverted. When you think about her, you don't necessarily think about everything that she has done for the queer community because it hasn't been so shoved in your face about it, because that's not the kind of person that she is.

Katie (Host) | 00:22:55 to 00:23:19
Granted, when I did think of her as a queer icon, I did have to look at those things as well, because I was like I found it interesting to be like, what has she done for us? Yeah, it's that whole thing of, like, why is she I thought it was. Just because of her songs, because I didn't know she didn't it's really nice, isn't it? As well as, like, she really embraces drag culture, so you see a lot of that within her kind of space. Is that her brand?

Katie (Host) | 00:23:19 to 00:23:47
Good way of putting it. So, yeah, she has. And I think that it's funny that she's kind of captured the hearts of people when she was really young and that's continued just because of the person that she is. Even though it's not like a big, bold person out there, it's still just like a little I still associate her with a queer icon in a yeah, not as big as the others. And it granted, like, not as big as Madonna, but then also, I was thinking about Madonna in the same headspace and being like, why is Madonna a gay icon?

Katie (Host) | 00:23:48 to 00:24:02
It's the songs, first of all. It's the diversity as well. Whereas Kylie didn't really have that diversity. She was very much like she went from Neighbours, where she was everyone's favourite neighbour. Madonna was very much that outwardly spoken.

Katie (Host) | 00:24:02 to 00:24:17
She was very genre breaking. Yes. She was very diverse. And it covered many years where you saw the elaboration of her character as it went. If you look at it, she may not be the most authentic person.

Katie (Host) | 00:24:17 to 00:24:50
So I would say in this day and age, I see why she kind of drops off. Like you mentioned before, she is a bit problematic. And I think that she will peter down the gay icons, even though her voguing has been and if you don't know what voguing is, it's very much if you look at the song Vogue and look at Archie On. Instagram. Now, her film clip for Vogue is very iconic, and that has come into a lot of I don't want to say gay dancing, but the dance moves for a lot of drag queens as well as a lot of gay men.

Katie (Host) | 00:24:50 to 00:25:25
I mean, granted, even though she has been a bit problematic in the recent years, she has actually done a lot of support for the queer community again. So she's used herself as a platform. She's supported a lot of charities, she did a lot of space in the place of AIDS research and prevention, all that kind of stuff. So she has done a lot for us. She actually even did a documentary, I Am, because We Are, which highlights the challenges faced by people who are affected by AIDS and HIV and raising the awareness of issues that would disproportionately affect the queer community as well, and those kind of things.

Katie (Host) | 00:25:25 to 00:25:34
So she still is very public about her support of that kind of stuff. We can't choose our icons sometimes. No, true. Yeah, that's very true. You make a fair point.

Katie (Host) | 00:25:34 to 00:26:13
And like Judy Garland, every time I searched up queer icons, judy Garland kept on coming up. And I don't think it's because it's funny because it's that whole history of, like, I'm a friend of Dorothy. So if you don't know where that comes from, it comes from The Wizard of Oz. And it actually comes from the basis of The Wizard of Oz being such a touchstone film for queer culture because of the themes of transformation, self discovery, the search for acceptance. And that resonating with a lot of people, which I understand it used to come from that slang term of being like, I'm a friend of Dorothy, being like, I'm gay, which people still use today.

Katie (Host) | 00:26:13 to 00:26:45
And whenever I hear it, I'm like. The first time I heard it, I was like, what? Who's Dorothy? And then, oh, yeah. And then so I think that's when it first started, that kind of transforming of a personality from the wizard of Oz and then apparently from what historical things are saying, it's because of her vulnerability and empathy and that she's had a lot of resilience within her struggles with addiction and mental health and all that kind of stuff that people empathised with a lot and the pain that was perceived in her song.

Katie (Host) | 00:26:45 to 00:27:16
So that's all been very much like anything we were talking about before, is like when you feel for a song, you kind of become more connected to the artist. So that's kind of the space that it was put in. Granted, when it comes to her support for the queer community, she was, and I would say. Perceived as an ally because she was accepting of her queer supporters. There wasn't really like a platform that she sat on for it but it was more like I accept you for who you are and thank you for supporting me.

Archie (Host) | 00:27:17 to 00:27:38
So I can see why people would say but I probably wouldn't put her in the same level as someone like Lady Gaga. Definitely not. Definitely not. I think she was probably one of, like, the very, very early ones. But I don't think she either has the personality of and granted, nothing against her because, as I found out today, her daughter was Liza Minnelli who is definitely a queer icon.

Katie (Host) | 00:27:38 to 00:27:54
And she's very open and groundbreaking. And I think that she's a lot more authentic, whereas I think Judy Garland more sat in that space of being like she's very feminine. But Judy Garland had a very troubled childhood. She did. Which really impacted on her and her.

Katie (Host) | 00:27:54 to 00:28:15
Yeah. I think that also the space that we look at for where Judy Garland was is a very different space to where we put yes. Yeah. So when you look at the original, when The Wizard of Oz originally came out in the world in the day, that was around then if you were perceived as a queer advocate back then. It was very different.

Katie (Host) | 00:28:15 to 00:28:28
It was very different to when Cher first came out. Totally good. Yeah. So it's very much changed. Other person that I think is just absolutely fabulous and she's the last person that I'll talk about a lot is Dolly Parton.

Katie (Host) | 00:28:29 to 00:28:46
She is one of my faves dolly Parton's credible. It's funny because she's kind of made a resurgence and I think that no matter what, Dolly Parton's very unproblematic. She doesn't change who she is. She's unapologetic about it, but she doesn't shove it in your face either. She's genuine and she's authentic.

Katie (Host) | 00:28:46 to 00:29:25
Yeah, she's genuine, she's authentic and the way that you see her connection with Miley Cyrus as well and that beautiful connection that they have there. But she's always been a queer icon with the songs that she's gone through with her scepticism about whether she's queer or not, which I always think is really funny, especially with her song Jolene and being like is Jolene actually about her? Is it about her Jolene? I've always thought that that was really funny. She's just such a personality and even though she is very much an advocate and in some ways I'd say that she's quite outly spoken in the ways that she's been very big with her support of the queer community.

Katie (Host) | 00:29:26 to 00:29:55
I still think that she's just reigned so true to her authenticity. It's really beautiful. And of course she's done a lot of charity work and she's very philanthropic when it comes to the support for the queer community. And I think that no matter what her flamboyant style and the way that she is will always appear to the queer community. Because it's just so be who you want to be in a world where everyone is so different or we're a world where everyone is wanting you to be one way.

Katie (Host) | 00:29:55 to 00:30:12
You just be who you are. And whether that be, like, the silhouette of an hourglass with these giant lips and a very big head, she's just so brilliant. And the way that she dresses is just absolutely amazing. It's absolutely beautiful. Other people, like, mentioned, is like Liza Minnelli, judy Garland's daughter, has been really big.

Katie (Host) | 00:30:12 to 00:30:31
Elton John, like you were saying, I think with all these people, if you look at them as they do sit in the same group. What about Olivia Newton John? Yeah, absolutely. I think, in a way that she has been a big advocate when it comes to the queer community. You see a lot of the ways that she's yeah, definitely.

Katie (Host) | 00:30:31 to 00:31:00
I would say Olivia Newton John as well. And it's the same with Barbara Streisand. If you look at her music and you look at how she's also been advocate and just like the personalities. If I think of every queer icon out there, I think somebody who's a bold person, I think of somebody who's really sparkly, I think of somebody who's probably got the best fucking wardrobe ever. I see somebody who is authentic in their solidarity for the queer community.

Katie (Host) | 00:31:01 to 00:31:38
And who they are is just and their solidarity just in inclusivity in general is just like a big basis to things. Like you were saying earlier, we have a lot of gay icons that are still popping up and it's lovely to see that kind of impact on the world and that representation that even if somebody isn't queer, that they are allies, that there are people who are willing to fight for us. And being an ally is such a big thing in the fact of it's not a passive thing, it's an active thing, and having that representation in media, which is so important. So thank you for listening to our small talks. Oh, it's a small talk.

Katie (Host) | 00:31:39 to 00:31:49
Thank you. Anyway, thank you for listening to our episode. It's been gay icons. Just a little glimpse of, like, why gay icons are gay icons. Yeah.

Archie (Host) | 00:31:49 to 00:31:55
And who would you agree with? Who would you disagree? Who would you add to the list? Who's your favourite gay icon and why? Yeah, that'd be good.

Katie (Host) | 00:31:56 to 00:32:02
Send us a message. Yeah. Or comment below on one of our. We'Ll do something on social. Yeah, exactly.

Archie & Katie (Host) | 00:32:03 to 00:32:11
Yeah. So thanks for listening all the way through. It really means a lot. If you like what you heard, don't forget to rate review and subscribe. Until next time, I hope that we.

Archie & Katie (Host) | 00:32:11 to 00:32:13
Have been perfectly queer.